Home « Forum « Author Hangout

Forum: Author Hangout

Is Sci-Fi getting fewer new stories?

Crumbly Writer

Posting to three sites at once, I sometimes notice things I otherwise wouldn't. One I have noticed, is that Sci-Fi's updates are now primarily 'classic' stories from the 50s and 60s, rather than new material from SOL's own authors. Which leads me to ask: are fewer of us posting to Sci-Fi? Are we writing fewer sci-fi, or just not bothering with the alternate sites (I typically post chapters earlier to Sci-Fi and FS than I do to SOL, just to help promote more traffic to the sites).

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Crumbly Writer

Most authors are not interested in a brand new site that doesn't have many readers. When I announced scifistories, many author jumped and posted their stories there, but after posting what they have, either they haven't written much new or simply don't want to bother for such little return in downloads and feedback.

Since we're continuing with our policy to get all the the sci-fi stories that we can onto the site (beginning with public domain stuff), the public domain stuff is starting to dominate.

Hopefully, by the time that we're done with the public domain postings, I would be done with the multi-site wizard or the common core story server for all sites and that would make it much easier for authors to post on our network of sites.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Most authors are not interested in a brand new site that doesn't have many readers. When I announced scifistories, many author jumped and posted their stories there, but after posting what they have, either they haven't written much new or simply don't want to bother for such little return in downloads and feedback.

Thanks for the update. I never moved over much of my earlier works, so I need to get busy and port it all over (each site has a different collection of my works).

After more consideration, I'm now thinking I'll start posting the entire story to Sci-Fi and FS before posting them to SOL in order to draw more readers to the site, because it allows me to post the more complete story (with reader corrections from the other sites) to SOL.

It takes more time, and more effort, but I think it benefits everyone.

By the way, just out of curiosity, any word on progress on the new (proposed) site yet?

Lumpy

I've started posting my sci-fi story over there (well, submitted chapter 1 today). I've had another sci-fi story (much more sci-fi than my current one) that's been floating around my head for a while. Maybe I'll push it to the forefront and start working on it.

Lumpy

@Crumbly Writer

new (proposed) site? I must have missed that. What's the new site?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Crumbly Writer

By the way, just out of curiosity, any word on progress on the new (proposed) site yet?


I finished the user facing part (display, shopping cart and credit card handling) and working on the authors' section. Submissions there are totally different from SOL's engine, plus doing all the legalese needed and the accounting.

To be honest, I've been unable to achieve much progress these recent months due to my own slowing down. Programming doesn't just come to my head like it used to and since I'm busy with business and family, it's hard to shift focus and concentrate on new code. I may have to hire some programmers to finish all the backlogged programming work that I have on my plate as my own productivity is about 10% of what it used to be due to older age. :(

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

To be honest, I've been unable to achieve much progress these recent months due to my own slowing down. Programming doesn't just come to my head like it used to and since I'm busy with business and family, it's hard to shift focus and concentrate on new code. I may have to hire some programmers to finish all the backlogged programming work that I have on my plate as my own productivity is about 10% of what it used to be due to older age. :(

I can relate, as I'm facing multiple days, where I used to crank out chapters, where I basically sit uselessly, unable to focus (though I try to minimize those).

As one of the site's regularly published authors, I'm eager to see the new site once it's ready, but I'm not about to press for it before it's ready. I'd rather wait instead of negatively impacting both the new and current sites, or even your health. Take as much time as you need. I trust you'll do an excellent job, as those typically take more time than crappy jobs! 'D

@Lumpy

new (proposed) site? I must have missed that. What's the new site?

It's never been publicized, or even named, but Lazeez hinted that he's working on an SOL sales site for the works of SOL's published authors (i.e. they'll no longer have to rely on amazon, lulu or smashwords, they can instead purchase from the authors benefiting them and SOL, without having to reward sites which detract from SOL's daily traffic.

Since the clear majority of my sales are SOL related, I'm excited about the possibilities (especially since the alternatives (i.e. Amazon, lulu and smashwords) are all so problematic and 'flakey').

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

some of us posted all the stories we had that were relevant to the site in one big go. There are a couple more I've not yet posted due to them being in the review / revise status, and I intend to post the revised story to all the relevant sites when I finish revising them.

Ernest Bywater

@Lumpy

new (proposed) site? I must have missed that. What's the new site?


if you're good at Internet research it's very easy to find - but all it is, right now, is a splash page that says "e-book self publishing - Coming in 2017"

I'll have to wait and see how it goes, because I currently sell all my books via Lulu and get paid via PayPal each month, as well as having them free on SoL.

Ernest Bywater

I'd like that idea. My one attempt at selling an eBook went disastrously.


Some authors do well selling through Amazon, while I do reasonably well selling through Lulu, and most of what I sell are e-pubs.

Replies:   Lumpy
Lumpy

@Ernest Bywater

That is a concern I have. I do ok selling books on Amazon, and I know some of those sells come from SOL folks wanting to support me. And those buys help push my books up the chart so non-SOL Amazon people see it and buy them...if SOL people start buying from SOL (which, of course, I would be incredibly grateful of), that would in the long run cost me some sales from non-SOL people...and yet, I can't begrudge Laz doing his own thing on this front.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Lumpy

I can't begrudge Laz doing his own thing on this front.


I suspect Lazeez may be responding to an author need. I read the Terms of Use for Amazon and made a conscious decision not to put all my works there because of their terms amounting to outright theft of my work and they take the majority of the money. Not sure it it's still the case, but at one time if you wanted anything more than 30% of the sale at Amazon you had to remove your story from all other outlets.

Also, some SoL authors had their revenue withheld and their books removed by Amazon due to complaints about the content. Then add in the number of SoL books plagarised and sold through Amazon, and you can see why some people aren't happy to do business there.

I think Lazeez will be offering authors the chance to sell anything they can publish at Sol. I'll wait and see the terms when he gets the site up.

As to lulu, where I do all my sales, I typically sell about 50 to 100 books of each title in the first month of its release, and I get 80% of the price. So I'm quite happy there, although others aren't.

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Not sure it it's still the case, but at one time if you wanted anything more than 30% of the sale at Amazon you had to remove your story from all other outlets.


How does the 30% compare to what a typical author would get from a dead tree publisher?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Lumpy

@Ernest Bywater

That isn't accurate. The % is based on what you charge. You can charge 2.99 and get 70%, and still have it on other sites, for instance.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

How does the 30% compare to what a typical author would get from a dead tree publisher?


Not sure, because their sell prices include printing and advertising costs as well as an advance.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Lumpy

That isn't accurate.


As I said, Not sure it it's still the case, but at one time if you wanted anything more than 30% of the sale at Amazon you had to remove your story from all other outlets. At that time you got only 30% unless it was exclusive to Amazon, and if it was at a cheaper price elsewhere Amazon lowered the price to match, so a story on SoL became free on Amazon. If it was exclusive to Amazon, only then did you get 70% less costs, and only from certain listed countries.

No the current rules at Amazon are:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A29FL26OKE7R7B

Amazon Pricing Page has 35% and 70% Royalty Rates. The 70% only applies to certain sales territories and is after Amazon Delivery Costs are deducted. Both have a Price Matching rule of Amazon dropping the price to match what the book is sold for elsewhere, thus you get nothing once they see it on SoL, unless you remove it from SoL.

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A301WJ6XCJ8KW0

They also have minimum and maximum prices you must abide by which is US$2.99 to US$9.99 for the 70% Royalty option.

Please Note: The 70% royalty option applies only to purchases of qualifying Digital Books by customers in certain territories. For sales to customers in Brazil, Japan, Mexico, and India, Digital Books must also be enrolled in KDP Select to be eligible for the 70% royalty option. See the Pricing Page for more information about the Available Sales Territories.

Then there's the KDP Terms and Conditions where books on the 70% Royalty are automatically in the KDP Lending program where they can return the book for a full refund after having read it, if they're fast enough to do so. 5.2.3 Digital Books that are in the 70% Royalty Option (as described in the Pricing Page) cannot be opted out of the lending feature.

Term 5.3.4 Customer Prices - To the extent not prohibited by applicable laws, we have sole and complete discretion to set the retail customer price at which your Digital Books are sold through the Program.

And you have to love term 5.5 Grant of Rights You grant to each Amazon party, throughout the term of this Agreement, a nonexclusive, irrevocable, right and license to distribute Digital Books, directly and through third-party distributors, in all digital formats by all digital distribution means available. Which gives Amazon the right to continue selling your book for as long as they wish to, even after you pull it from their system.

back in 2015 I tried Amazon with Rough Diamond for sale at US$5.95 via a partnership sales through Lulu, and pulled the book from Amazon in 2016 because they dropped the price to $4.93 without notice, yet Amazon still show it as being for sale through them for $3.94 and they don't send me any royalties for sales they make. Several times I've asked to have it deleted from their catalogue, but it's still there. They also show the 2012 paperback Star Performance as for sale through them as Unavailable despite me never authorising them to sell it. Again, they never respond to requests to pull it.

Replies:   Lumpy
Lumpy

@Ernest Bywater

I don't disagree that the platform has lots of issues and they bigfoot the hell out of authors.

I was just saying the royalty info wasn't right. I agree with the rest :)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Lumpy

I was just saying the royalty info wasn't right. I agree with the rest :)


And what wasn't right about it? Up until the change in Sept 2015 you couldn't lodge for the 70% royalty unless the story was exclusive to Amazon - and I did say it used to be, which is why many stories got pulled in those days. Since then you can only get the 70% royalty for sales in certain territories and if it isn't cheaper at another site.

Crumbly Writer

I'd like that idea. My one attempt at selling an eBook went disastrously.

No 'independent publisher' is going to make a living at it, so you need to be realistic at it. The vast majority of 'authors' only sell 2 - 5 books, so if you sell 20 to 50 then you're officially doing 'phenomenally'.

Again, you won't get rich, but you can at least treat yourself to dinner every now and then.

You also need to be aware of your readers. DON'T respond like most, who offer books for free for only $.99, as that only works when you're selling hundreds of thousands of books. If you're merely selling hundreds, then it's better focusing on quality. Presumably, your readers know and appreciate your work, so they're willing to pay a 'reasonable' price for it. I typically aim for $5.99 for my ebooks, and $9.99 for the print books (though even with that breakdown, I hardly sell ANY print books).

Also, you have to treat each sales outlet as a separate market. If you sell on Amazon and lulu and smashwords, and only sell ten to each site, that's 30 potential new readers, who'll likely purchase your other books. You can't look at total sales, instead you aim for growth and 'associated sales' (i.e. each new book will attract a couple new readers, while selling more of your earlier books).

As for Sci-fi, if you have something they can use, post it. I typically post to both sci-fi and FineStories before SOL in order to help promote the sites (it's also a handy way to get feedback on a story to identify outstanding issues before posting to SOL).

In the end (regarding book sales), your primary market will be your bestseller, whatever that is. Thus, if you start on lulu, like Ernest, most of your sales will be on lulu. If you started on SW, like me, then most of your sales will be there, simply because that's where your fans become accustomed to purchasing your books.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I suspect Lazeez may be responding to an author need. I read the Terms of Use for Amazon and made a conscious decision not to put all my works there because of their terms amounting to outright theft of my work and they take the majority of the money. Not sure it it's still the case, but at one time if you wanted anything more than 30% of the sale at Amazon you had to remove your story from all other outlets.

No longer true. You can now earn 70% from most sales regions (the other regions are unlikely to purchase books written in English anyway). The key is to stay away from Amazon Select, though many do well on there. The key (with the Select or Amazon Unlimited) seems to be selling short novelletes of around 10,000 words (a 'novellete' is defined as 16,000 to 25,000 words), so these stories are little more than extended short stories, mostly consisting or quick porn reads you can churn out on a regular basis.

I've probably sold on more outlets than anyone else. Like I've said (earlier comment) each author tends to sell best on their primary outlet, but I've gotten fairly abysmal sales on lulu. My best sites are SW and Amazon.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Not sure, because their sell prices include printing and advertising costs as well as an advance.

30% is tremendous considering what a traditional publisher will offer. My brother has a $20 book for sale, each sale on Amazon only earns him $0.50. If he sells the books himself, he can earn upwards of $2.00, but only because he purchases a full carton (200 books) and sells each before purchase the next. Meanwhile, I earn several dollars for each $4.99 or $5.99 book and don't have to sweat each and every sale.

Ernest Bywater

That's NEVER been the case!


CW, I'll answer the three posts together, with some answers being the text from the Amazon websites I gave you the links to. They set out these rules, however, you may be lucky until someone reports seeing a better price on another site.

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A301WJ6XCJ8KW0

From the Price Requirements Page: Please Note: The 70% royalty option applies only to purchases of qualifying Digital Books by customers in certain territories. For sales to customers in Brazil, Japan, Mexico, and India, Digital Books must also be enrolled in KDP Select to be eligible for the 70% royalty option. See the Pricing Page for more information about the Available Sales Territories.

Note it insists you have to be in KDP Select to get the 70% in some countries.

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A29FL26OKE7R7B

From the Pricing Page 70% Royalty option: Available Territories:
f you choose this Royalty option for your Digital Book, it will apply to sales of your Digital Book to customers in the following Available Sales Territories:

Andorra
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Brazil*
Canada
France
Germany
Gibraltar
Guernsey
India*
Ireland
Isle of Man
Italy
Japan*
Jersey
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mexico*
Monaco
The Netherlands
New Zealand
San Marino
Switzerland
Spain
United Kingdom
United States
Vatican City

Your Royalty on sales to customers outside the Available Sales Territories will be as provided under the 35% Royalty Option (i.e., at the 35% Royalty Rate calculated as indicated for that Royalty option).

Hundreds of countries in the world, but only 28 you can get the 70% in - minus the delivery costs as well.

Matching Price Competitor: By "price-match" we mean where we sell the Digital Book in one or more of the Available Sales Territories at a price (net of taxes) that is below the List Price to match a third party's sales price for any digital or physical edition of the Digital Book, or to match our sales price for any physical edition of the Digital Book, in any one of the Available Sales Territories.

......................

The Amazon main terms say they will set the price - end of story. They've proven that with dropping the price of the couple of books I test sales through them a couple of years ago. They lowered the price twice without a request or telling me they were doing it.

...................

Amazon limits where you can get the 70%, and sets out they will price match. If they haven't hit you yet, you're lucky. But in the past authors had posted in the old forum about being told they had to pull the book from the free sources if they want to post at Amazon for anything but free.

...........................

Lulu pays 80% for the sales from the Lulu site, and I do well there with no work beyond putting it on the site.

...........................

Amazon, B&N, and Apple don't like you to sell on their site if you publish through anyone else. They especially hate it when you terms of use with someone like Lulu don't give Amazon, B&N, or Apple the heavy handed rights they demand if you publish through them direct.

..........................

You complain about the Title rules - I proved they're related to the Partnership sales enforced on Lulu by either Apple, Amazon, or B&N. If I put a print book up for sale via Lulu only the title rules don't apply. But if I change that to sell through the Partnership the title rules kick in and I have to abide by them. That makes it clear those rules are externally required. For some unknown reason all e-books lodge at Lulu go through the system as if they're in the Partnership.

..................

The one e-book book I had for money sale through Amazon in recent years has sales records of the book being sold by them, then a refund drawn against that sale when the book was returned to Amazon within 2 weeks. That, and the second drop in price caused me to withdraw the book from sale by Amazon, but they still have it on their website.

Also, two older books which were before I authorised any books for sale on Amazon are still showing on the Amazon website, but as currently unavailable - why they don't just pull them after a few years is beyond me. All requests to Amazon to have them removed go unanswered.

At this point in time, and for over 2 years, the only books I have approved for sale outside of Lulu to be on Amazon, Apple etc are those I give away free.

................

I've never said you can't sell through Amazon, but have said you should be aware of the rules Amazon imposes before you try to sell through them. However, when I state their words on how they operate, don't tell me I'm wrong about it - tell them.

Ernest Bywater

And I keep insisting that you're whistling through you're hat. Since you've Never published through Amazon, you're not really a reliable source on the subject, having read a single contract back when Amazon first started, and having shied away from them ever since.


I may never have published directly through Amazon, but have sold through Amazon and been ripped off by them, mostly because I refuse to give them all the power they ask for.

As to the title crap you complain about, I can publish stories in violation of it through Lulu, but am forced to comply when I note it for publishing through the partnership crap which includes Amazon, B&N, Apple, and Kobo - thus that is being applied by that partnership agreement, not by Lulu. It may well be it's something one of the other sites only applies to the others and not their direct authors - I don't know. But I do know it only applies when choosing to publish outside of Lulu. Sadly, the e-book system has a basic assumption of external publishing, but I've managed to get past the title crap there too.

As to your comments Amazon have never carried out what they insist they will do, things they mention multiple times, take it up with Amazon. They say they can and will do it - and all I'm doing is telling you what they say. back in 2010 to 2015 there were many cases of authors saying they had to pull books because they wanted to publish them on Amazon and the publisher insisting they not be out there free - so Amazon have pushed to get the books pulled.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

As to the title crap you complain about, I can publish stories in violation of it through Lulu, but am forced to comply when I note it for publishing through the partnership crap which includes Amazon, B&N, Apple, and Kobo - thus that is being applied by that partnership agreement, not by Lulu. It may well be it's something one of the other sites only applies to the others and not their direct authors - I don't know. But I do know it only applies when choosing to publish outside of Lulu. Sadly, the e-book system has a basic assumption of external publishing, but I've managed to get past the title crap there too.

And what I keep repeating, over and over again, is that those same partners don't enforce the same standards when I submit the exact same story via Smashwords, thus, by definition, it becomes lulu's problem, since the problem only exists between Lulu and the other publishing partners, not with those partners and any other group.

Of course, I'll have to see. So far the books been accepted for distribution to the partners, it's entirely possible they'll disallow it at some point in the future. But so far, they haven't.

back in 2010 to 2015 there were many cases of authors saying they had to pull books because they wanted to publish them on Amazon and the publisher insisting they not be out there free - so Amazon have pushed to get the books pulled.

Since I'm not familiar with any of those cases, you'll have to quote some sources. I heard a couple, years ago, but not since.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

when I submit the exact same story via Smashwords, thus, by definition, it becomes lulu's problem,


If it was Lulu it would apply to Lulu internally. However, since it only kicks in when using the partners it has to be something from the partnership contract and externally applied. Without having access to the full details of the contract the partners signed we can't say which partner applies it, nor if that partner also applies it within their own system. It is clearly not a Lulu requirement, but a partnership requirement - which of the other four it's from is what neither of us knows.

On the same track there is a Partnership requirement for the e-book sale price to end in 99 cents which only pops up when you do the partner pricing page at the end. Like the title issue, it only applies to the partner pricing, and not the internal Lulu pricing. Which partner pushes that I don't know, but it affects the prices of all the other partners when the partnership rules are activated, just the same as the title rules do.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Since I'm not familiar with any of those cases, you'll have to quote some sources. I heard a couple, years ago, but not since.


At the time there were several blog entries, and forum entries, by authors stating the were pulling their stories because it was a requirement of getting it published at Amazon - it's so far back the blogs are sure to be expired, and none were stories I had a great interest in, so I didn't note the details, just the facts. The Amazon rule changes since then look to have removed the compulsory removal, but they do still have their price matching rules they say they enforce.

In that regards, my books 'Rough Diamond' and "Wrong way - or is it?' are being sold on Amazon for $3.94 and $9.95 without my permission. I just had my son, Allyn, report them both to Amazon (he has an account with them) as being free at SoL - now we can see how long it takes them to take action, and what that action will be.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

At the time there were several blog entries, and forum entries, by authors stating the were pulling their stories because it was a requirement of getting it published at Amazon - it's so far back the blogs are sure to be expired, and none were stories I had a great interest in, so I didn't note the details, just the facts. The Amazon rule changes since then look to have removed the compulsory removal, but they do still have their price matching rules they say they enforce.

Sigh. Yes, you've been making the same point for years, but your issue with Amazon was based by lulu's poor relationship with Amazon, not with Amazon itself. I don't know of anyone on Amazon who 'can't remove a book from Amazon'.

But you said that there were 'many cases' of Amazon pulling works as recently as 2015, yet when called on it, you refer back to your original complaints.

It seems as if it isn't just Amazon who has issues with lulu, as smashwords doesn't have the same contentious relationship with the various providers.

But seriously, no one here cares about our issues with Amazon and lulu, since few authors here publish and almost none are using lulu or have such strenuous issues with Amazon. So let's either bury this or take it offline where we aren't rehashing the same details over and over again.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

So let's either bury this or take it offline where we aren't rehashing the same details over and over again.


Aww. And here I just made popcorn. :)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Aww. And here I just made popcorn. :)

Hey, if you want to watch squacks over minor issues, this is the place for it. We manage to find some relatively unimportant issues to fight over. But Amazon has long been a sour point for Ernest, while lulu has been one for me, so ...

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Sigh. Yes, you've been making the same point for years, but your issue with Amazon was based by lulu's poor relationship with Amazon, not with Amazon itself. I don't know of anyone on Amazon who 'can't remove a book from Amazon'.


My issues with Amazon are not just via Lulu - they have a book of mine from 2010 which was never approved for sale via Amazon through Lulu. How they got that on their system is beyond me.

However, today my son told me Amazon will never look at nor read nor react to any complaints unless they come via your Amazon account, and I don't have one. If that's true, it explains why they don't do anything, they refuse to acknowledge anyone can exist without an Amazon account.

As to not having the record, I can't access any of my old information from prior to December 2015 until such time as I can get the Gestapo to give me back my computer and the data on it they took in July 2015 - I had no computer from the end of July to mid December. All the records and info I kept is locked up with the Gestapo and they're bleating like sheep at wanting to destroy everything because they can be bothered to check it all and return it.

Amazon has a poor relationship with almost everyone who doesn't go through Amazon direct - Amazon has issues with Lulu, Amazon has issues with Apple, Amazon has issues with Hachette, Amazon has an issue with B&N, - - the problem is where they all intersect Amazon, not Lulu.

Sure Smashwords work well with Amazon, they've been in a special partnership arrangement on e-books since 2010, and maybe before that. Lots of time to workout their hands into each other's glove.

Despite your constant support of Amazon, you've not explained why having them arbitrarily lower selling prices without the approval of the author is a good way to operate, but Amazon does it.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


My issues with Amazon are not just via Lulu - they have a book of mine from 2010 which was never approved for sale via Amazon through Lulu. How they got that on their system is beyond me.


Have you checked the ISBN, it might be pirated copy, in which case you could send them a notice of copyright theft, at which point they'll freeze all sales (only for the last month) until they resolve who the true owner of the work is.

I was always under the impression Lulu mistakenly released it to Amazon and you could never remove it once they did.

Sure Smashwords work well with Amazon, they've been in a special partnership arrangement on e-books since 2010

Sorry, but SW and Amazon don't get along either, which is why I've ways posted directly thru Amazon.

Despite your constant support of Amazon, you've not explained why having them arbitrarily lower selling prices without the approval of the author is a good way to operate, but Amazon does it.

Yes, they do, but it doesn't impact the author's royalties/income, and hopefully spurs additional sales. It's simply not the vast conspiracy you think it is.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

It's simply not the vast conspiracy you think it is.


Not a conspiracy, and never said it was a conspiracy, just a bullying company doing all they can to become rich off the work of others by stealing everything not bolted to the cement floor with the bolts welded shut. And they pay lower royalties than some others who don't have such draconian rules about using them.

Back to Top