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When my pizza came

Switch Blayde

I was re-reading a story I wrote and came upon the line: "When the pizza came."

I love pizza. But my son eats it with Ranch dressing. So when I read that sentence...

I changed it to, "When the pizza arrived."

joyR

@Switch Blayde

Ok, so now I'm NEVER again going to order a pizza "with everything"..!!

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

She'll be cumming round the mountain when she cums. :)

Dominions Son

@joyR

As long as you don't ask for the secret sauce you should be okay.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Dominions Son

Unless you order it with a mountin' due......

REP
Updated:

Great! Another pizza discussion. Can't wait to get off topic. :)

Replies:   Dominions Son  Wheezer
Dominions Son

@REP

Great! Another pizza discussion. Can't wait to get off topic. :)


I thought pizza was all about the topics; pepperoni, sausage, anchovies...

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Skip the anchovies and let's get to the veggies. :)

StarFleet Carl

@REP

let's get to the veggies


Veggies are what pre-processed ham, bacon, sausage,and hamburger eat before they wind up on MY pizza. Meat lovers, all the way.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@StarFleet Carl

Meat lovers, all the way


Yes, but I am trying for a balanced diet. :)

Replies:   joyR  Dominions Son
joyR

@REP

Yes, but I am trying for a balanced diet. :)


Then you need a double cheese burger in one hand... and a diet soda in the other...

Replies:   REP
REP

@joyR

How about burger in one hand, pizza in the other, and a camel pack of tap water to wash them down with? :)

Dominions Son

@REP

Yes, but I am trying for a balanced diet. :)


Put your pizza on top of a dowel rod and spin it. That will check if it's properly balanced or not.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

If we drive the end of the dowel rod into the center of joyR's double cheese burger. The burger will act as a stand and make it easier to spin the pizza.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

If we drive the end of the dowel rod into the center of joyR's double cheese burger. The burger will act as a stand and make it easier to spin the pizza.


But that would reduce the certainty that the pizza is perfectly balanced. :)

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

We can stand on each side of the pizza and nibble away until it is balanced. :)

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

We can stand on each side of the pizza and nibble away until it is balanced. :)


No, you find the light spot and add pepperoni. :)

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

add pepperoni

I like pepperoni. There would be no light spots very quickly.

Bondi Beach

@Switch Blayde

I was re-reading a story I wrote and came upon the line: "When the pizza came."

I love pizza. But my son eats it with Ranch dressing. So when I read that sentence...

I changed it to, "When the pizza arrived."


Two words: "Barbara Broadcast."

bb

Wheezer

@REP

Great! Another pizza discussion. Can't wait to get off topic. :)


While some may be content with pizza, I much prefer Mexican food. I'm eating a spicy beef & bean burrito for breakfast & making Sonoran style hot dogs for my dinner.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Wheezer

I have a number of food items I enjoy in addition to pizza and Mexican dishes are included. One of the things I like about pizza is its portability. I can grab a slice and eat it while I am walking around the house doing other things. Burritos are portable also if they aren't covered with cheese and sauce.

I can set either down and pick it up when I finish what I'm doing; preferably on a paper towel or napkin.

Bon Appetite !

joyR

@Switch Blayde

When the pizza came.


So as you witnessed this event, can you please tell the rest of us exactly where the erogenous zones are on a pizza...?

And if the pizza was fresh, and therefore 'young' is it even allowed on SOL...??

Not, please note, that I am advocating sexual relations with a 14+ year old pizza.

Oh, and was it really Ranch, not Raunch Dressing..??

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@joyR

Oh, and was it really Ranch, not Raunch Dressing..??


I wrote "Ranch dressing." Why would you capitalize "dressing?"

Replies:   joyR  Ross at Play
joyR

@Switch Blayde

Why would you capitalize "dressing


For the same reason the second word in a product name is usually capitalised.

Coco Cola
Burger King
Salad Cream
Ben & Jerry's
Chilli Sauce

etc etc

If I was using it as a generic, rather than as a specific, then yes, lower case. Check your cupboards for further examples. :)

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@joyR

Burger King


Wouldn't that be "I ate a Burger King hamburger" with a lower case "h"?

Wikipedia doesn't capitalize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranch_dressing

Replies:   REP  joyR
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

I wrote "Ranch dressing." Why would you capitalize "dressing?"

I would not capitalise either of them.
For "Ranch dressing" to be correct the dressing must have been named after something with the name "Ranch". Think of "Caesar salad" and "Waldorf salad" named after a specific person and hotel.
I would not use "Ranch Dressing" either. That has just an ordinary noun 'dressing' modified by the adjective 'ranch'. What is the specific thing that was once named "Ranch Dressing"?

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I would not capitalise either of them.


You're right. But even if the name is a proper name it may not be capitalized. Grammar Girl discusses it, and to be honest, it's complicated. The question was asked about cocktails. It turns out Bloody Mary is capitalized but a manhattan is not.

From the article:

It turns out that whether you capitalize names of food or drinks that contain proper nouns is a style choice. The Chicago Manual of Style has the clearest rule: don't capitalize these terms unless the names literally refer to the city or person. For example, Chicago says don't capitalize "swiss cheese" unless you're talking about cheese that comes from Switzerland. Following the Chicago rules, you wouldn't capitalize the "french" in "french fries" or the "irish" in "irish coffee."


http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/when-should-you-capitalize-cocktail-and-food-names?page=1

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

it's complicated

Yes, it can be. After making my post I thought of an example where I would capitalise "Ranch Dressing".
If I wrote a recipe book, I would call my recipe for ranch dressing, 'Ranch Dressing', because then I would be using capitals for name of my one-and-only recipe, rather than the generic name of a type of product.

REP

@Switch Blayde

Wikipedia doesn't capitalize it.


You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name. Ranch Dressing (capital D) is the name the manufacturer assigned to one of their products (i.e., a specific type of dressing). As such, assigning the name Ranch Dressing to a thing (product) makes it a Proper Name and Proper Names are capitalized.

Ross at Play

@REP

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name.

That would be correct for the internal documents of a manufacturer. They'd be identifying a particular product.
It's not correct when others are referring to some ranch-style dressing from an unidentified manufacturer. Then it is just a generic name of a type of thing.

joyR

@Switch Blayde

Wikipedia doesn't capitalize it.


There will be permafrost in Hell before I accept any Wikipedia information as absolute fact.

joyR

@REP

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name. Ranch Dressing (capital D) is the name the manufacturer assigned to one of their products (i.e., a specific type of dressing). As such, assigning the name Ranch Dressing to a thing (product) makes it a Proper Name and Proper Names are capitalized.


Exactly. Thank you.

I was beginning to wonder if it was a UK/USA thing.

Replies:   Ross at Play  REP
Ross at Play
Updated:

@joyR

There are expressions that can be used as proper nouns or common nouns in different circumstances.
The question is whether the way they are being used refers to one, and only one, thing; or whether it is being used to refer to an example of a type of thing.
So, a manufacturer would refer to their ranch dressing as 'Ranch Dressing', while most others may refer to that manufacturer's dressing as simply 'ranch dressing'.

Ross at Play

@REP

You are overlooking that the manufacturer produces multiple types of dressing and gives each type a name. Ranch Dressing (capital D) is the name the manufacturer assigned to one of their products (i.e., a specific type of dressing). As such, assigning the name Ranch Dressing to a thing (product) makes it a Proper Name and Proper Names are capitalized.

What happens if you apply the same logic to products such as white bread and roasted peanuts? Do you use capitals for those too?

Replies:   joyR
REP

@joyR

if it was a UK/USA thing


Nope, more likely tunnel vision.

joyR

@Ross at Play

What happens if you apply the same logic to products such as white bread and roasted peanuts? Do you use capitals for those too?


That would depend upon the context. If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

For an example of how peanuts vs Peanuts is used see this link.

Replies:   Ross at Play
richardshagrin

When you live on or visit a ranch, the clothing you put on would be ranch dressing. Things like cowboy boots, blue jeans, a western shirt, a bandana, cowboy hat, leather belt, maybe chaps or gloves. Somethings you need to ride horses which is likely done on a ranch.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@joyR

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

Whether or not you should treat something as a proper noun is not based on what others may have named it - it is based on the way you are using the noun.

If you are identifying something as a particular example from a class of things, then you treat it is a proper noun.
If you are simply identifying something is a member of some class of things, then you treat it is a common noun.

I should call a loaf 'white bread' when its baker may call the same loaf 'White Bread'. There is no inconsistency in that - because we are identifying different things.

EDIT TO ADD
You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things. The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread', while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.

Replies:   joyR
Crumbly Writer

@REP

Skip the anchovies and let's get to the veggies. :)

Yum! Pineapple pizza, Hawaiian style.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

Meat lovers, all the way.

Extreme meat-lovers: I'll take the vegetarian topping, consisting of chunks of vegetarians.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
joyR

@Ross at Play

You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things. The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread', while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.


Isn't that exactly what I wrote..?? (In fewer words)

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised. Simple.

Replies:   Ross at Play
REP

@Crumbly Writer

Yum! Pineapple pizza, Hawaiian style.


Oddly enough, I like ham, pineapple, and pizza sauce. Put them together and YUCK.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

Oddly enough, I like ham, pineapple, and pizza sauce. Put them together and YUCK.


The strangest pizza I've seen was a breakfast pizza (scrambled eggs, bacon and breakfast sausage).

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

Have you ever heard of Chinese Pizza. There are many versions. Some use hoison bbq sauce or peanut sauce instead of pizza sauce. Add cheese and Chinese vegetables and some recipes add meat. One recipe I saw added boiled Chinese noodles on top.

There are some really weird recipes out there for pizza. There was one that really weirded me out, but I been successful in forgetting it; thank god.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

Have you ever heard of Chinese Pizza.


No.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

No.


Recipes and photos on the web.

Ross at Play

@joyR

Isn't that exactly what I wrote..?? (In fewer words)

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.

I'm not sure. It is not precisely clear how to interpret what you wrote. I interpreted it as meaning if a loaf is generic, then everyone uses lower case, but if it's been named by its baker, then everyone uses capitals. I would disagree with that interpretation.

That would make whether something is written as a proper noun an inherent property of an object. That is not so. Whether or not a noun is proper or common is a grammatical concept - and a property of the noun, not the object. It depends on the way the noun is being used.

I would revise what you wrote to say exactly what I meant as follows: (with my changes in italics)
If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then you use lower case. BUT. If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then they may use Capitals, but you usually would not. You would only use capitals to show you are restricting your meaning to one particular type of bread. It's not always Simple.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Ross at Play

Thanks, but I'll stick with my version.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@joyR

Thanks, but I'll stick with my version.

Do you want the consensus opinion of the more experienced writers who post on this forum?
If so, I suggest you email me a sample of your writing (via my author page). I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.

Replies:   joyR  joyR
StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

Extreme meat-lovers: I'll take the vegetarian topping, consisting of chunks of vegetarians.


Like I said, veggies are what pre-processed sausage eats.

(smirk)

joyR
Updated:

@Ross at Play

Thank you for your kind offer, but it's not necessary, because as far as I can recall, none of my stories include references to Ranch Dressing, so there is no need.

However, should a future story include contentious condiments, I'll reconsider your kind offer.

Replies:   Ross at Play  REP
Ross at Play

@joyR

Thank you for your kind offer, but it's not necessary, because as far as I can recall, none of my stories include references to Ranch Dressing, so there is no need.

However, should a future story include contentious condiments, I'll reconsider your kind offer.

As you wish.
I would certainly want to check if another writer told me it appears to them that I do not understand the difference between proper and common nouns.

Replies:   joyR
Darian Wolfe

My wife had a friend who actually received a pizza that the driver donated his "own" sauce to. The driver went to jail.

REP
Updated:

@joyR

1. There are many experienced Authors in this thread and from the lack of comment on your post it would seem that they understood what you said and agreed with your position (i.e. white bread used as a common noun should not be capitalized, and White Bread used as a proper noun should have initial caps).

2. Past discussions regarding writing indicate that a well-written passage should exclude unnecessary words and content. Your version stated the same basic conclusion in two short sentences. Good job!

joyR
Updated:

@Ross at Play

How about I break this down to simplify it for you?

You wrote:

You could also have one shopper asking, "Give me a loaf of white bread," and the next asking, "Give me a loaf of your White Bread." They are identifying different things.


Ok so far. You continued:

The first is asking for a loaf of bread of the type that is commonly called 'white bread',


I had previously stated:

If you are using white bread to describe a generic bread, then lower case. BUT.


You continued:

while the second is asking for a loaf of a particular product that someone has named 'White Bread'.


And I had already stated:

If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.


It is patently obvious that we agree on usage, yet you seem not to comprehend fully. To that end and in light of your generous offer, might I reciprocate by offering the same courtesy? By all means feel free to email me a sample of your writing. (via our brand new service) I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@joyR

This is the statement I could not comprehend, because it is ambiguous.

If a baker has a product that they named "White Bread" then Capitalised.

Does that mean everyone should use capitals, or only the baker?
I identified how I had interpreted it, to mean 'everyone', and all further comments were based on that assumption.
* *
It is still not absolutely clear to me what you believe. Based on your comment, "It is patently obvious that we agree," I now assume you meant 'only the baker'.
* *
Regarding looking at each others' writing, I use the same pen name for all of my editing, writing, and posts on forums. You can find my writing and email me easily enough. I cannot find your writing because it appears you post comments here under a different pen name to your stories.
* *
You might note I have only posted one short story. I spend a large proportion of my waking hours on editing stories for others - who rely on me to know things like this, or look them up when needed.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Ross at Play

Never assume.

At school one of our classes was entitled "English comprehension". I have no idea if you took those lessons or indeed if schools you attended had a similar class.

If you wrote "White bread" I take it to mean you are referencing a generic product, whilst if you capitalise and write "White Bread" then obviously you are referring to a specific product with that name.

Or colloquially, just use your loaf.

I will freely admit that todays use of English (sadly) differs widely from the English of my youth. The once vaunted "BBC English" accent and pronunciation were slaughtered long ago. If you hold certain views on the use of the English language, far be it from me to gainsay you. Personally I will continue using the English language in the manner I was taught, and with the Oxford English Dictionary as my reference.

I hadn't noted the number of stories you have posted, though from the tone of your posts I would have placed the count far higher.

Replies:   Ross at Play
joyR

No matter how you slice it, I think we've pretty much put the zz in pizza...

Ross at Play

@joyR

Never assume.

Assumptions are okay - provided you state them.

from the tone of your posts I would have placed the count far higher.

I do have a significant body of work, but it's in the stories of others which I have edited.

joyR

@Ross at Play

First you posed this question:

Do you want the consensus opinion of the more experienced writers who post on this forum?


Then you proposed the following solution:

If so, I suggest you email me a sample of your writing (via my author page). I'll identify any changes I would make and you may then ask others if they agree.


However, now that you have pointed out that you have in fact only posted one story, I fail to see how your solution is valid. After all, with one story posted you hardly qualify as one of "the more experienced writers who post on this forum". Any newbie would, by definition, have posted one story.

I also find it rather delusional of you to openly claim that:

I do have a significant body of work, but it's in the stories of others which I have edited.


The stories written by others is not YOUR work.

Obviously I in no way intend criticism upon editors, however experienced.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@joyR

After all, with one story posted you hardly qualify as one of "the more experienced writers who post on this forum".

I have detailed, relevant experience for the kinds of issues I contribute to on these forums, grammar and punctuation rather than plot and character development.
I've surely put more effort into learning those things that most writers on the site.
You did not appear to believe the point I was explaining. That's understandable, so I made a sincere suggestion intended to allow you to
check with others.
I apologise for trying to be helpful. I won't make that mistake again.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Ross at Play

Apology accepted.

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