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Fraxo

Hi.

In my language we have a phrase for supporters rooting for winning teams. Translated it will be something like 'prosperity supporter'. Even though it has a negative ring to it, it's also used among friends rooting for rival teams, teasing done in good humor.

Is there an existing phrase in English? Particulary about American football?

My understanding is that the majority of users on this site are American. Some of the stories I'm working on ended up taking place in the US, and since I'm a European citizen I'd like to get some input.

I decided to let my male and female character root for rival teams. It makes for some interesting discussions and good-nature teasing.

I guess you have rivalry in American football as we do in European?

Is it mainly games in the big league or would people root for and go watch college games?

The two main characters are both in college two years appart. One study to become a vet and the other to take engineering and an MBA. Would that make them go to different colleges? Would that make them root for different teams, or do you have rival teams within the same city in the NFL that you would cheer for from a young age?

Dominions Son

@Fraxo

Fans (short for fanatics), is the only thing I can think of.

Ross at Play

@Fraxo

In my language we have a phrase for supporters rooting for winning teams.

My suggestions would be someone is a fair-weather supporter or has jumped on the bandwagon.
Perhaps instead someone might say they were a true or loyal supporter of some team, and the other person was not.
I expect Americans do have expressions for such things.

maroon

Could be "fair weather" fan or bandwagon fan.
"Fair weather" refers to people who abandon their team when they play poorly, and come back when they play well.
Bandwagon fan refers more as people who switch team loyalty or start following a team because the team is playing well. Sometimes the motivation is join-the-crowd, which doesn't always parallel when the team plays well.

Long-time fans of a team often criticize the bandwagoneers and fair-weather fans that pop up when a team starts playing well, but that assumes the team deserves unconditional loyalty no matter how little loyalty is shown by the players or the owner. You rarely see players criticized for becoming a free agent and being a bandwagon player who plays for whoever pays them the most. Owners don't get criticized for dumping a popular player merely because they can't play anymore.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Fraxo


The two main characters are both in college two years appart. One study to become a vet and the other to take engineering and an MBA.


"Studying to become a vet" at the undergraduate level could be done at any university or college with strong biology and chemistry classes. Pre-MBA courses be found at many different schools as well.

At the graduate level there are 30 vet schools in the U.S., i.e., schools that grant the D.V.M. degree, and I'm not sure there's more than one veterinary school in a state.

As undergraduates there's nothing that would require them to attend separate schools although they migh; at the graduate level they might easily end up at separate schools, so if it's important for your story for them to be separated that would be no surprise.

For example, the University of California, Davis is a world leader in agriculture sciences and veterinary medicine. It offers engineering and MBA programs as well, but other schools (Stanford for engineering and MBA, University of California, Berkeley for MBA) are stronger.

EDIT TO ADD THE OBVIOUS: Those aren't the only schools strong in MBA or engineering in California.

So you could go in practically any direction with your characters as far as their studies go.

bb

REP

@Fraxo

My understanding is that the majority of users on this site are American.


I don't know the percentage of American users on this site, but I suspect it is less than what you believe. If you continue here in the Forum, you will find that many of the posters are not Americans.

Ross at Play

@REP

many of the posters are not Americans.

Lazeez has quoted a figure to me that about 70% of hits are from North America.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@Fraxo

In my language we have a phrase for supporters rooting for winning teams. Translated it will be something like 'prosperity supporter'. Even though it has a negative ring to it, it's also used among friends rooting for rival teams, teasing done in good humor.


Not quite sure what you're going for here. But if you're talking about someone who is actively supporting a team simply because it is doing well, then Ross was generally correct with the "bandwagon" reference, and possibly calling them a "Fair weather fan(or supporter)" may be in order as well.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/jump-on-the-bandwagon.html

Back to the bandwagon. Circus workers were skilled at attracting the public with the razzmatazz of a parade through town, complete with highly decorated bandwagons. In the late 19th century, politicians picked up on this form of attracting a crowd and began using bandwagons when campaigning for office.

The transition from the literal 'jumping on a bandwagon', in order to show one's alliance to a politician, to the figurative use we know now was complete by the 1890s. Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt made a clear-cut reference to the practice in his Letters, 1899 (published 1951):

"When I once became sure of one majority they tumbled over each other to get aboard the band wagon."


As to people who are "fans" of other teams that didn't make it to the championships for example. I don't think there really is a term to use in reference to their personal allegiances when it comes to their choice to "support" one team over the other. At that point they're probably just "a supporter" or a generic "fan" rather than a fanatic about that particular team.

Welcome to English, where we have (generic) "fans" who aren't particularly committed/invested in what's going on. We have "fans" which live up the "fanatic" standard about their team, and then we have people who pretend to be "fans" based on how things are going(the "bandwagon" crowd).

Of course, then we have the other kind of fan which is used to move air around.

Also in play are the people who are fans of the sport/activity itself and are not particularly invested in a specific team, or whose loyalty may be tied to one or more players(or even coaches) instead.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

Welcome to English, where we have (generic) "fans" who aren't particularly committed/invested in what's going on.


I would put it a little differently.

You have different levels of fandom.

The fair weather fan is only paying attention to the entire sport because the hometown(state, nation) team is winning. They are just being swept up in a fervor of tribalistic pride.

Then you have fans of a sport, who are very much fanatical about the sport, but may or may not be fans of any one team. I've known a couple of people like this.

Then there are team fans.

Then, even in team sports, you get fans of particular athletes. Some of these may even change team loyalty if their favorite athlete changes teams.

Except for the fair weather fans, non of these is necessarily any more fanatical than any of the others.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

Except for the fair weather fans, non of these is necessarily any more fanatical than any of the others.


Not going to dispute your more lucid accounting of it. But the point still stands. All of them are still called "fans" in the strictest sense. There just happens to be a rather wide range as to what that can mean in English.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Not_a_ID

But the point still stands. All of them are still called "fans" in the strictest sense. There just happens to be a rather wide range as to what that can mean in English.


My point still stands. Except for the fair weather fans, all of them are not just call fans, they are fans in the strictest sense (fanatical).

The only difference is that they are fanatical about different things.

Ernest Bywater

@Fraxo

One study to become a vet and the other to take engineering and an MBA. Would that make them go to different colleges? Would that make them root for different teams, or do you have rival teams within the same city in the NFL that you would cheer for from a young age?


As an Australian I found I had to research some of these items to understand them well enough to work with them in stories set in the US. So here's a simple summary:

Some US colleges / universities will teach all the subjects you mention, while some don't. The issue there is not all US colleges teach veterinary studies, but a lot do, and almost all teach engineering and business admin. With the US colleges and universities you have to be damn careful with how you present them, also many of them will not allow you to use their name because the sell merchandise with their name on it, which is why the colleges in my stories are either fictional names or unnamed - legal concerns. When I took over finishing Shiloh I had an email from the university the original author named and the university management nicely told me to not use their name or be sued. I change the university name.

Now most US fans may support four teams in the same sport, but not all of them. The teams and reasons are;

1. This is the local team for where they live,

2. This is the local team for where they grew up,

3. This is the team of the college / university they went to,

4. This is the team their father supported and they grew up supporting it.

It would very odd for a person at a college to support a team from another college. However, it would be very common for students at a college to support different professional sports teams because they come from different home towns, or they come from the same home town and it's one that's midway between the home cities of two professional teams so they have a choice as to which is their 'local' professional team.

Wikipedia has good lists of the different professional sports teams in the USA, and those lists include where they're based.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

On the subject of fans, there are people who will follow a team simply because their favorite player is on that team, and when the player moves to another club, so does their support. I know people who have friends on three different professional sport teams in the same competition here in Australia, so they support all three teams, even when they play each other. This is because they support their friends.

Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

In my language we have a phrase for supporters rooting for winning teams. Translated it will be something like 'prosperity supporter'.

You could try 'legacy fans', but that means you root for your father's team, rather than your own school's team.

Two students could very well attend different schools, though that would limit their interactions. Another option is to have one root for their boyfriend's team while at the same school as the other, or if there's a romantic attachment, possibly her brother's team—especially if he's a member of the team.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

I don't know the percentage of American users on this site, but I suspect it is less than what you believe. If you continue here in the Forum, you will find that many of the posters are not Americans.

Like you, Fraxo, many here are like Ernest, who's Australian but sets his stories in American settings merely to reach a broader audience (though he typically places Australian characters in American settings).

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Lazeez has quoted a figure to me that about 70% of hits are from North America.

That's readers, not authors, although I've documented readers from all across the world, including China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and other sites you wouldn't expect to be visiting a sex-story site. That 30% figure can cover a broad, complex landscape of readers.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

Another expression closer to your 'prosperity supporter' is saying someone "came out of the woodwork" and claimed to be a fan only after the team started winning.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Another expression closer to your 'prosperity supporter' is saying someone "came out of the woodwork" and claimed to be a fan only after the team started winning.

Would that be a 'dustbin supporter' or a 'chip off the old-school block'? 'D

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Me: Lazeez has quoted a figure to me that about 70% of hits are from North America.
You: That's readers, not authors

They may be different. The site does seem to be "blessed" with the presence of a lot of Aussies. :-)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  graybyrd
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

It would very odd for a person at a college to support a team from another college. However, it would be very common for students at a college to support different professional sports teams because they come from different home towns, or they come from the same home town and it's one that's midway between the home cities of two professional teams so they have a choice as to which is their 'local' professional team.


EXCEPT: It is not uncommon practice, in particular in the United States for people to get their "4 year degree" at one school, and then pursue their Masters/PHD at an entirely different school. While not party to this myself(didn't complete my 4 year), I'm given to understand that it is widely held that having such a split provides a "stronger credential" for the person who does so.

Obviously, this may not apply for the "Ivy League" tier of schools where simply being enrolled there carries its own weight and significance.

But this does mean that for College sports, finding someone with "a personal allegiance" to multiple schools isn't unusual. Although odds are good that the two(or more) colleges/universities they attend do not normally play against one another, with it being very likely the schools play in different leagues if not entirely different divisions.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

are like Ernest, who's Australian but sets his stories in American settings merely to reach a broader audience (though he typically places Australian characters in American settings).


Much of that is true, CW, but my major reasons for the US settings for some stories are to do with how much easier it is to research locations, and also how much easier it is to have a large bank of assumed knowledge by the readers due to the US culture being so well know via films and TV shows. In the stories I set in Australia I have to go into more detail in providing the cultural background.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

It is not uncommon practice, in particular in the United States for people to get their "4 year degree" at one school, and then pursue their Masters/PHD at an entirely different school.


Yes, that doesn't happen here to. And one reason given for the credentials being seen as better is they're exposed to two different sets of teaching staff and subject knowledge - I don't know how valid that concept is. I've worked with a few people who've studied at two US colleges, and they usually have a very strong preference for the sports teams of only one of them. But my sample is too small to draw any sensible conclusions from.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

They may be different. The site does seem to be "blessed" with the presence of a lot of Aussies. :-)

I'm not so sure about that. Aussies represent a very respected—though stubborn—contingent of SOL authors, though I have no clue how many Aussie readers we have. 'D

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

It is not uncommon practice, in particular in the United States for people to get their "4 year degree" at one school, and then pursue their Masters/PHD at an entirely different school. While not party to this myself(didn't complete my 4 year), I'm given to understand that it is widely held that having such a split provides a "stronger credential" for the person who does so.

Few 'graduate schools' sponsor their own nationally ranked football teams, so most people will continue to champion their 'college' teams, even if their graduate school has an associated team as part of their 4-year program.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Much of that is true, CW, but my major reasons for the US settings for some stories are to do with how much easier it is to research locations, and also how much easier it is to have a large bank of assumed knowledge by the readers due to the US culture being so well know via films and TV shows. In the stories I set in Australia I have to go into more detail in providing the cultural background.

Sorry, Ernest, I didn't intend to imply you did it merely to cash in on a larger audience, only that you represented a tendency by many foreign authors to write stories about American rather than their native cultures—though technically that's not completely true, since you include details about Australia as well.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry, Ernest, I didn't intend to imply you did it merely to cash in on a larger audience, only that you represented a tendency by many foreign authors to write stories about American rather than their native cultures—though technically that's not completely true, since you include details about Australia as well.


That's OK, and no offense was taken. I was simply pointing out there are other very practical reason for doing it the way I do. It's like when I spend hundreds of hours researching something to get it right I'll reuse what I researched in more than one story. Which is why you'll see Yuma, Arizona turn up in a few stories, ditto with Albuquerque, New Mexico, etc. I did the research, so I use it again to save time.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

That's OK, and no offense was taken. I was simply pointing out there are other very practical reason for doing it the way I do. It's like when I spend hundreds of hours researching something to get it right I'll reuse what I researched in more than one story. Which is why you'll see Yuma, Arizona turn up in a few stories, ditto with Albuquerque, New Mexico, etc. I did the research, so I use it again to save time.

Ha-ha, that reminds me of certain unnamed authors who 'save effort' by continually reusing their own names for the names of most of their lead characters.

Fraxo

Thanks.

Bandwagon fan seems close to what I'm looking for. Found this on urbandictionary:

Bandwagon fan: Bama won the championship! Roll Tide!

Alabama fan: Since when are you an Alabama fan?

Bandwagon fan: Since--

Alabama fan: 2011 right?

Bandwagon fan: ...Roll Tide!

Alabama fan: You probably don't even know what that means...

I discussed this with Ross, and he felt that 'bandwagon' and 'fairweather' was both very negative terms, and you would be offended if labeled as either one?

Regarding names on college and hometown for that matter, I've always used fictive names. Makes it easier for myself with research and I avoid situations like mentioned above.

As for the team names in the story I have simply called them Gladiators and Rangers. It seems all US teams in different sports have these terms in their names. Is my team names sufficient or do I need to add a proper name as well?

Replies:   maroon  Crumbly Writer  REP
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Aussies represent a very respected—though stubborn—contingent of SOL authors, though I have no clue how many Aussie readers we have. 'D

Yeah. I've no idea if it flows over to readers, but Aussies are very much over-represented in the subset of authors I've had any dealings with - and at least half of them are not in the least bit stubborn. :-)

graybyrd

@Ross at Play

The site does seem to be "blessed" with the presence of a lot of Aussies. :-)


Mostly just the one, whose presence seems like many. ;-)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
maroon

@Fraxo

I couldn't think of any pro or college team with gladiators as their nickname, and googling for it shows an Arena football team and a minor league hockey team. Arena football looks like a made-up game to make use of idle hockey rinks.

If you're looking for common team names, I guessed Tigers, but google found a link saying 1=Eagles, 2=Tigers, 3=Bulldogs.

Only Ranger pro teams that sound familiar are the Texas Rangers in baseball, and New York Rangers in hockey.

Not sure what you mean by proper name, except maybe the city name.

If you're looking for a generic city name, that's the reasons the Simpsons tv show has their home town be Springfield. Other candidates could be Riverside or Fairview.

Replies:   Fraxo
Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

Mostly just the one, whose presence seems like many. ;-)


Do I bow, now or later?

Fraxo

@maroon

Yes, I meant the city name. Seems like Gladiators and Rangers might work then, as I want to avoid any connections with real teams.

Sounds like pro teams would be the way for me to go as I would like for them to be able to interact at college. They would then be able to share the college team at least.

I'm on thin ice when it comes to knowledge since I've never been across the pond. Keeping it fictive makes it easier, but I'd still like for it to be authentic.

As for education, a bachelor degree here is 3 years, and a master 5 years. The span in the US is 4 years, and an additional MBA two more?

My male character has just finished his freshman year in engineering, and the female character being two years older, will then enter her 4th and final year becoming a vet?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

@Fraxo


Sounds like pro teams would be the way for me to go as I would like for them to be able to interact at college.


May want to forget Rangers, in the USA there are 5 baseball teams called Rangers (4 pro, 1 college), about a dozen ice hockey teams of that name, and an American Football team of that name in Germany.

Gladiators have to Arena football league teams of that name in the USA.

I trick I've thought of using is finding a team name that exists in one sport and use it in another, after checking it isn't already in use.

There's a basketball team the LA Lakers - so if you have a fictional Pro Baseball or Football team named something like the Florida Lakers you're home free.

Heaps of baseball teams using names like White Sox, Red Sox, Blue Sox, but never an American Football team. So something like the Redwood Red Sox would fly for a football team.

A little research and you can find something

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

I discussed this with Ross, and he felt that 'bandwagon' and 'fairweather' was both very negative terms, and you would be offended if labeled as either one?

Regarding names on college and hometown for that matter, I've always used fictive names. Makes it easier for myself with research and I avoid situations like mentioned above.

As for the team names in the story I have simply called them Gladiators and Rangers. It seems all US teams in different sports have these terms in their names. Is my team names sufficient or do I need to add a proper name as well?

As an 'Americana', I suspect that Fairweather is better is more widespread (less awkward) than "Bandwagon", though the terms imply different things. You rarely hear the term "bandwagon fan", though "he's just jumping on the bandwagon" IS common. Just an odd usage thing.

Generally, as noted, it's best not to use actual names for most football universities (since they make a sizeable amount of their yearly income off of football paraphernalia. Also, the team name are typically paired with the college/university name, so even if both are fake, put them together so it sounds more 'natural'. Also, without being too obvious about it, don't be afraid to make the fake university name recognizable. Since it's copyright law, they can only file suit on the copyright itself, thus "Cincinnati Bengals" could become "the Cini Bengalese" or the "Baltimore Ravens" could become the "Balt Crows".

For alternative names, MLFB (the organization) has already filed trademarks on the following names (i.e. you can't use them, but it gives an idea of the possibilities so just mix and match as you see fit):

Alabama Airborne
Arkansas Attack
Florida Fusion
Northwest Empire
Ohio Union
Oklahoma Nation
Oregon Crash
Texas Independence
Utah Stand
Virginia Armada

Replies:   Not_a_ID
REP

@Fraxo

'bandwagon' and 'fairweather'


Yes the two terms both have a negative connotation here in the US.

Bandwagon suggests doing something with a group that the person would not do as an individual. It gives me the image of a person joining a hate-filled mob. Although, it can also provoke the image of the person joining with others to perform some positive action, like picking up litter on a public beach. So the intent of the term is a person who does not have the courage of their convictions and can be easily swayed by others.

Fair weather suggests a friend who is with you when things are comfortable for them and will not cause them any problems or create the need to expend effort to help you. But when the weather turns bad (i.e. you have a problem or need help), that so-called friend is nowhere to be found, or if you find them, they always have a prior commitment that must be fulfilled.

For your team names, I wouldn't worry as long as you don't link them to an existing city or College/University that has a team that uses the same name. Pick a name that seems right to you.

Not_a_ID

@Fraxo

As for education, a bachelor degree here is 3 years, and a master 5 years. The span in the US is 4 years, and an additional MBA two more?


Can't speak authoritatively, but that is the general ballpark. A Bachelor's Degree is considered a "4 year degree" although the average time to completion now seems to be 5 years. :/

Keep in mind, it is a "4 year degree" only assuming they attend a school that runs on a Fall/Spring Semester schedule with only an abbreviated summer session. During which time most students will return home or enter the full-time workforce to earn some extra money for the following year, and only take a "normal course load." (And not be entering active enrollment at the school with credits already earned via High School Advanced Placement classes, etc)

As such, if you have someone attend year-round, or simply take on an above-average workload of classes, it is possible they could accelerate their time to completion of the 4 year degree by a considerable degree. But some of that will depend on the degree program in question, as many/most of have a required succession of courses with other pre-requisite requirements that may slow them down in that regard. IE, you need class A + B completed in order to attend Class C, and you need Class C to attend Class D, while Class D and E will needed to attend Class F.

Further compounding things is that some schools will do deliberate gate keeping on some programs, with only certain classes being available in a certain semester, without regard to minimum enrollment criteria. (Which is another way they could slow someone down, "Your course selection was canceled this semester due to insufficient enrollment")

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


As an 'Americana', I suspect that Fairweather is better is more widespread (less awkward) than "Bandwagon", though the terms imply different things. You rarely hear the term "bandwagon fan", though "he's just jumping on the bandwagon" IS common. Just an odd usage thing.


This would be a more precise usage guideline. Both terms are generally considered to be pejoratives, in that the person applying the term to someone else is likely using it in a derogatory way. Particularly if they're one of the fanatics that have supported the team for a long time.

The bandwagon reference is almost always restricted to that connotation of "(someone) is just jumping on the bandwagon" although it isn't always explicitly stated in such a way. More generally, "fair weather fan" is going to see wider application outside of that one specific usage.

Of course, it should also be noted that the "bandwagon" reference has application beyond sports, as previously cited, it's commonly used in Politics and is also sometimes referenced in the business world as well. Such as people jumping on the bandwagon in regards to applying "buzzwords" to their products or services, or seeing a "hot" product/service that they want to get in on too, so they "jump onto the bandwagon" to get in on the action.

In which case it still has somewhat negative connotations as it indicates they were either more than "a bit slow" to adapt the "trendy" thing in the first place, or that they just adopted it without having a freaking clue as to what they just involved themselves in. (Going back to the initial, and very literal, use of a bandwagon to create a spectacle in order to draw crowds when a circus came into town, the management was "lured away by the circus")

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

In which case it still has somewhat negative connotations as it indicates they were either more than "a bit slow" to adapt the "trendy" thing in the first place, or that they just adopted it without having a freaking clue as to what they just involved themselves in. (Going back to the initial, and very literal, use of a bandwagon to create a spectacle in order to draw crowds when a circus came into town, the management was "lured away by the circus")

Back when I was a worker bee (way back when) I dreamed of 'management' running away to join the circus, which would allow the workers to actually get something accomplished for a change. 'D

Unfortunately, once the management disappears, so do the paychecks and then, shortly thereafter, so do the worker bees themselves.

Fraxo

I'm probably going to drop the hunt for a fitting phrase and rewrite the passage. Complaining about the one team bying their way to success, and the other never winning anything because they stick to local and young players. Something like that.

Education is free where I live (apart from books and a tiny registration fee) as long as you attend public and not private schools. And as a student, everyone can apply for a scholarship/loan.

Up to 40% of the loan will be converted into a scholarship as long as you finish your studies and a couple of criteria such as not living at home etc. You don't start paying back the loan until you are finished studying and started working. The loan is considered favorable with approx. 2% interest.

So students finish a bachelor degree full time in 3 years. Some take part time jobs or work during the summer to get some extra income. Summer schools or courses is not very common, but they exist.

Then after a bachelor you can attend a masters degree if you're not already rolled into a full 5 year program.

Capt. Zapp

@Ernest Bywater

A little research and you can find something


When researching, be sure to look for team name origins. For example, the LA Lakers started life in Minnesota and were called the Lakers after the '10,000 lakes'.

maroon

Another example that's even more horrible is the current Utah Jazz got their name because they moved from New Orleans. There was also a USFL team, Boston Breakers, who kept the same nickname while in 3 cities.

Most of the time they'll change their name if the name is associated with the city of origin, but not in these cases. Sometimes the name starts out associated with the city, but eventually the link is lost from memory. The origin of LA Dodgers comes from when they had been the Brooklyn Dodgers, which had been originally shortened from "Trolley Dodgers", but eventually people lost track of exactly what they were dodging.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Fraxo

Thanks for tips and inputs.

Is it 4 years to become a nurse also?

Replies:   oyster50  REP  StarFleetCarl
Michael Loucks

@maroon

The origin of LA Dodgers comes from when they had been the Brooklyn Dodgers, which had been originally shortened from "Trolley Dodgers", but eventually people lost track of exactly what they were dodging.


Actually, I believe they were the 'Brooklyn Grays', and their fans (called 'cranks' in those days), nicknamed them the 'Trolley Dodgers' and that became the name ten or fifteen years later.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
oyster50

@Fraxo

My #2 wife was a nurse.

Not exactly. most states here have two levels of 'nurse' - 'practical' or 'vocational', and registered.

Practical nursing is taught in vocational schools or is a two year course in colleges. To become a registered nurse from scratch, most programs call this a four-year program, however many schools have a program by which a holder of a practical or vocational nursing certificate can complete requirements to become a registered nurse in a couple of years, perhaps less.

Replies:   Dominions Son
REP

@Fraxo

One of the things Oyster50 overlooked mentioning, and you may be aware of it, is the types of things the two types of nurses can do.

In general, a Registered nurse is allowed to perform procedures that are more invasive to the patient than a Practical Nurse is allowed to do. The specific procedures a Registered Nurse can do and a Practical Nurse can not do, are determined by the individual state's laws.

StarFleetCarl

@Fraxo

Is it 4 years to become a nurse also?


As amplification on what Oyster said, we have different levels of nurses here.

CNA - Certified Nursing Assistant - 3 months
LPN - Licensed Practical Nurse - 2 years
ASN - Associates Degree in Nursing - 3 years
BSN - Bachelors Degree in Nursing - 4 years
RN - Registered Nurse - 5 years
MSN - Masters Degree in Nursing - 3 years
NP - Nurse Practioner - BSN + RN license + experience + MSN

The lengths I have listed are typical, you can do it in less or more, depending upon if you're working or not. Thing is, depending upon your education, you can get different licenses if you have the main core requirements done. So my wife has a BSN, has her LPN license, and then also has assorted specialty licenses as well. Keep in mind that nursing also requires passing CE courses as well - continuing education classes.

Switch Blayde

@Michael Loucks

Actually, I believe they were the 'Brooklyn Grays', and their fans (called 'cranks' in those days), nicknamed them the 'Trolley Dodgers'


And when they were the Brooklyn Dodgers, their fans affectionately called them the "bums."

They were my team when I was little. I hated the Yankees because they always beat the Dodgers. When the Dodgers moved to L.A. I felt betrayed so I switched to the Yankees. Best thing I ever did. It was the era of Mantle, Berra, Maris, Ford, etc. Great team.

Dominions Son

@oyster50

Not exactly. most states here have two levels of 'nurse' - 'practical' or 'vocational', and registered.


Actually, most states in the US now have a third level, Nurse Practitioner, which requires a masters degree.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

Nurse Practitioner


That is an odd title for a nurse. It makes it sound like they are practicing to become a nurse, which is what I thought the title meant.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

That is an odd title for a nurse. It makes it sound like they are practicing to become a nurse, which is what I thought the title meant.


No, they can act as doctors in certain functions. They can prescribe medications and run small clinics mostly on their own. They have to have some supervision from an MD, but it's not the kind of daily supervision that an LPN or RN gets.

Replies:   graybyrd  StarFleet Carl
richardshagrin

Sounds strange to me for an engineer to want an MBA degree. My brother-in-law got two engineering degrees, simultaneously, electrical and industrial engineering. So he worked as a consultant, mostly to banks, automating computer functions. I have an MBA in Insurance and Risk Management. I never wanted to be an engineer. My brother-in-law always wanted to be an engineer, on a steam locomotive.

Replies:   Fraxo
graybyrd
Updated:

@Dominions Son


No, they can act as doctors in certain functions. They can prescribe medications and run small clinics mostly on their own. They have to have some supervision from an MD, but it's not the kind of daily supervision that an LPN or RN gets.


Right on! For years in a National Recreation Area in central Idaho, where the summertime visitor density would be 20,000 people on any given weekend, the entire region was served by one small community of less than 100 residents, and a single Nurse Practitioner who was the ONLY medical professional there. She was assisted by a volunteer crew; an ambulance driver and a small roster of EMT's.

It's amazing what an odd & horrifying assortment of medical emergencies the average person can get themselves involved in, turned loose in the mountain wilderness.

Unsung heroes and heroines of our age: the paramedics and nurse-practitioners among us.

Edit to add: lest anyone assume the mistaken notion that a Federal playground, administered and controlled by Federal authorities and agencies, has some role to play in delivering emergency medical services, think again. T'aint so, McGee. S'not their job. They don't do it. You play, you pray there's someone there to patch you up.

Fraxo

@richardshagrin

The idea to combine engineering and MBA was for him to have management and business as well. Giving him the possibility to be a manager or run a business down the line.

After a bachelors degree you can combine a masters degree to gain knowledge in a different field where I live. It makes it possible to have a wider span of career opportunities. Do you do it differently?

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Fraxo

These days it is very expensive to get one degree, much less two. Not just tuition, living expenses, cost of textbooks, etc. but the salary forgone by taking more than four years of study. I got my MBA while working, and my employers paid my tuition for studying at night. My VA benefits also helped. I agree multiple degrees give a wider span of career opportunities, but costs money and time a lot of people would prefer to use for other activities. There are also non-degree educational options, taking exams for career focused certificates that also have career implications. Anything you can do while working and getting paid is likely to be easier to do than taking 5 or 6 or more years getting multiple degrees. You have to wealthy or have wealthy sponsors to get advanced degrees these days, or really motivated. One reason Doctors (medical or otherwise) demand high pay is their shorter careers after education completes and the high cost of their education.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  Fraxo
StarFleet Carl

@Dominions Son

They have to have some supervision from an MD, but it's not the kind of daily supervision that an LPN or RN gets.


That is very much state dependent. We have states right now where the NP have no restrictions, others that are weighing those issues, and others where the law is what you describe - whether that supervision is as little as the MD has to review 10% of the decisions made, or up to the MD has to authorize any prescriptions the NP writes.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

There are also non-degree educational options, taking exams for career focused certificates that also have career implications. Anything you can do while working and getting paid is likely to be easier to do than taking 5 or 6 or more years getting multiple degrees. You have to wealthy or have wealthy sponsors to get advanced degrees these days, or really motivated.

My sister managed to get the U.S. Army to foot the bill for two Ph.D's and another Masters, all in different fields. Now she's getting training in fields schools haven't even figured out how to teach yet.

It can be done, but you've got to either be incredibly lucky for incredibly persistent.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Our grandson graduated high school last year. He essentially 'majored' in HSROTC* and took two years of German language studies. He, we & his parents couldn't possibly afford University. He briefly considered emigrating to Germany for their vastly more affordable higher education.

But... being impatient to get on with his life, he enlisted in the US Army. His first duty station (where his German language skills will be greatly appreciated) is South Korea. Awaiting further developments...

*High School Reserve Officer Training Corps--a social and attitude adjustment program conducted by volunteer cadre.

Fraxo
Updated:

@richardshagrin

In this story I have the main character living at home while attending college. That would be plausible in a decent sized city in the US too, wouldn't it? Saves living cost.

Is it necessary to describe why he can afford two degree's in college? Wouldn't readers just assume that he can somehow?

I planned for him to have summer internship(s) or a trainee position later on. That could lead to tuition paid/scholarship as well as a job waiting for him when he graduates? I wanted to have him starting as an engineer, but have the opportunity to leading projects etc due to his multiple degrees. I assume the engineering degree would mainly focus on engineering?

How long would he normally have to have gotten in his study program to gain summer interships? Would connections with his late father's firm gain him internship/trainee opportunities?

If I have to explain him being able to take two degrees, I see a couple of options:

-His father died when he was a child. (already written in the story.) The payment they got from the life insurance could have been placed as a college fund.

-Some sort of scholarship. He did take advanced classes in high-school. Would that make him classify for scholarships?

-His lather father owned a engineering company/business and he want to follow in his father's footsteps making him need both degree's as he would take over CEO status when he's ready

Thinking about it now, I like the idea of him either having opportunites with his father's old firm, or his father's "owned" firm. Does that sound plausible?

Edit: Typo

Ernest Bywater

@Fraxo

That would be plausible in a decent sized city in the US too, wouldn't it? Saves living cost.


From my research that's more like to happen with a college in a small to medium sized town, especially one that grew up around a college started near a village. Most of the city colleges have a mandatory Freshman Year in the dorms policy, and few students will move back home after being in the dorms for a year.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Fraxo
Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

From my research that's more like to happen with a college in a small to medium sized town, especially one that grew up around a college started near a village. Most of the city colleges have a mandatory Freshman Year in the dorms policy, and few students will move back home after being in the dorms for a year.


I think that is more of a "prestige school thing" than anything else, and I'm not sure how particularly common it is anymore. As it's more of a "uniformity of experience" things that many Universities tend to want to NOT enforce anymore because of the whole "snowflake" thing as some would call it.

Most public(state) schools won't have such a requirement if for no other reason than they don't need to build or otherwise provide housing for much of the Freshmen student population by allowing them to live off campus. (And the publicly funded schools would have to also contend with the "hardworking landlord" (LOL) contingent of local lobbyists anyhow that would take offense at the school implementing policies that prevented anyone from renting their available units)

I can attest from first and second hand knowledge that at least so far as Idaho and Utah are concerned, neither state hosts any University that is known to have such a requirement. That includes all of the "State" Universities as well as Brigham Young University which is owned and operated by the Mormon Church.

That said, it is possible someone may find their way into a scholarship that includes "room and board" "...at a University run Dormitory/cafeteria." Which would create something of a defacto mandate to live on campus, except if they don't need/want to live on campus, they can typically just skip out on that (part of their) scholarship depending on how things are worded. Typically that'll be an option the student can exercise, but it isn't a requirement.

About the only real true exception to off-campus living, at least with the "public options" in these days would be the Military Schools, for somewhat obvious reasons in their case.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
sejintenej

In the first company I worked for you were required to study and get the equivalent of BSc - all in your spare time and at your own expense. When you passed they gave you £250 before tax - that didn't cover a year's costs.

I don't know what the penalty for failure was but the standards were high - in law it was higher than a lawyer's exams (but restricted fields - little court and family work) and accountants reckoned our exams were harder than theirs though we didn't do tax law.

Fraxo
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

We don't have any million cities where I come from, so a small or medium sized town would be the setting in my story. None of our colleges have dorms on campus either. Students who move to study rent or buy apartments nearby.

In my story, the male character lives at home, and the female character entering her last year at college has a rented apartment. I imagine some start living at the dorms, and find apartments later on?

Do every college have dorms on campus? What about smaller ones, in small or medium sized towns? Isn't it in some places common to start in a dorm the first years?

Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

Is it necessary to describe why he can afford two degree's in college? Wouldn't readers just assume that he can somehow?

College used to be much more affordable in this country (the U.S.). Back when I went to college (I graduated in 1980), the tuition was $7,000/year, and it was one of the highest in the country. Now, it's not uncommon for a single year to cost a student $50,000 USD. Many cover that huge gap between small 'grants' and their savings with loans which they'll be paying back for decades, limiting their future potential, so no one will question their skimping or scraping. If they're stretch thin and particularly ambition, have them augment their school with independent online courses (much cheaper) in a secondary degree, requiring only their passing certain tests to gain recognition in the field.

Part of the 'magic' of college is for teenagers to gain a certain degree of independence from their parents, so remaining at home while attending a two-year degree will be like waving to all your friends as they pass you by on their way to professional degrees while you accept whatever lower paying degree you can afford (it'll severely impact your future earning potential NOT going heavily into debt). The alternative is talking your way into a start up in the tech community to showing off exceptional coding skills—so you can bypass college entirely.

Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

In my story, the male character lives at home, and the female character entering her last year at college has a rented apartment. I imagine some start living at the dorms, and find apartments later on?

Much of what drives college students are perceived 'threats'. Those that remain at home are terrified the 'rich kids' at school with constant access to their girlfriends will win over their hearts, and they'll be left holding the remains in their hands, so they're a big conflict between full-time and 'part-time' students, with the live-in students not considering the others 'fully committed to their education'.

If you play off those common concerns, showing the stresses on the girlfriend with the guy's fears of losing his girlfriend to someone better able to spent more time with her than him, it should give you some rich material to work with.

Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

I think that is more of a "prestige school thing" than anything else, and I'm not sure how particularly common it is anymore.


It's possible the policy has changed in the few years since I did research on US colleges for a few stories. At the time I checked about20 public colleges across seven states and all but 2 had a mandatory Freshman Year in the dorms policy - with very limited exceptions, and living at home was an exception allowed at only 3 of the colleges. They all cited some research which claimed students who lived in the dorms for the first year were more likely to graduate than those who didn't.

Every one of them had mandatory college housing for all full ride scholarships issued by the college - if the scholarship included housing and food you had to go with the housing they assigned you.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Fraxo


Do every college have dorms on campus? What about smaller ones, in small or medium sized towns? Isn't it in some places common to start in a dorm the first years?


Not all colleges have dorms, and many that have them require Freshman to live in the dorms, but it's not universal. However, as I said, the bigger the institution the more likely they have college housing for all the students and want them in them to improve their revenue and profits.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Not all colleges have dorms, and many that have them require Freshman to live in the dorms, but it's not universal. However, as I said, the bigger the institution the more likely they have college housing for all the students and want them in them to improve their revenue and profits.


Which goes back to it being "an Ivy" or other type of "prestige" school where the Alumni and other interests have ensured that the school DOES have facilities to house all of the student. So that they can do exactly that-- mandate as much of the student body as possible live in their dorms(and the school get paid for it).

So if your research was predominately focused on major schools in the Eastern US in particular, and the (near) Ivy-League schools specifically, it wouldn't be shocking to see such requirements existed, and that such requirements still exist today for that matter.

But out in the "real world" for those who are not paying $20,000+/semester for their education, mandatory dorm life is the exception, not the rule.

The one exception possibly for athletes. But again, that's going to be something largely unique to the schools with Mega-well-funded athletic programs. Where someone at some point threw millions of dollars at the school to build student housing specific for the athletes. Which may be typical for dozens upon dozens of schools, but it isn't typical for the remaining hundreds of Universities and small colleges across the nation.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

So if your research was predominately focused on major schools in the Eastern US in particular, and the (near) Ivy-League schools specifically,


States covered were - Maryland, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, Arkansas, and Georgia - - about the most prestigious I looked at would have been Georgia Tech and UTEP. I'm not sure what colleges qualify as Ivy League ones, so I can say how relevant that designation was.

Some had mandatory dorm life for all but seniors, while most had it mandatory for Freshmen only.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Not_a_ID
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

Some had mandatory dorm life for all but seniors, while most had it mandatory for Freshmen only.


Even where it's only mandatory for freshmen, the requirement can be waived in some cases. I got such a waiver for myself for my bachelor's degree work, because I was local (around a 20 minute drive) and living at home with my parents.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Even where it's only mandatory for freshmen, the requirement can be waived in some cases. I got such a waiver for myself for my bachelor's degree work, because I was local (around a 20 minute drive) and living at home with my parents.


In an earlier post I mentioned some of them had exceptions. However, the ones that listed exceptions were never the same exception reason. For example, one allowed an exception for ex-military doing their Freshman year, while others didn't; some allowed for local living at home, while others didn't. In one case, I can't remember which college it was, the exceptions they had were so difficult to meet it was clear they felt they had a legal requirement to have some exceptions but made them almost impossible to meet. However, the key point of this whole sub-thread is that some colleges have college housing, and some don't while some with college housing have a live-in requirement for some students, and that the smaller the college the less likely they are to have a lot of housing and such requirements for the general student population.

On a related issue, some of the colleges had dorms where there were 4 to 6 students per unit for Freshmen and Sophomores while some limited number of 2 to a unit housing was made available to only Juniors and Senior, and they had some limited number single unit housing for post grads.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

I'm not sure what colleges qualify as Ivy League ones, so I can say how relevant that designation was.


There are varying definitions for it, but the typical reference is (mostly) evoking "brick(/stone) facade buildings covered in Ivy."

Penn State would qualify as a (near) Ivy League school. Maryland has a state college as well in those ("near") ranks. Although more typically the strict interpretation for an "Ivy" school is a private school, and virtually all of them are in the mix-Atlantic and New England region... Where Ivy is fairly common as a plant, wild and otherwise.

I wouldn't completely rule out it being a play on ivy -> "Ivory towers" by some back in the day, but that's just wild and unfounded speculation on my part.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

On a related issue, some of the colleges had dorms where there were 4 to 6 students per unit for Freshmen and Sophomores while some limited number of 2 to a unit housing was made available to only Juniors and Senior, and they had some limited number single unit housing for post grads.

Good point, EB.
Fraxo, if you haven't done so yet, you should think about the character of the female MC's roommate. Various grievances with their roommate would be a major topic of conversation for most students living on campus.

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

AFAIK, the term 'Ivy League' is usually restricted to the 8 universities that compete against each other in an NCAA Conference of that name.
That list of 8 universities is almost identical to the 9 universities established before the American Revolution.
If used in a more general sense the connotations are very old, among the most prestigious in the world, and incredibly expensive.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

At the time I checked about20 public colleges across seven states and all but 2 had a mandatory Freshman Year in the dorms policy - with very limited exceptions, and living at home was an exception allowed at only 3 of the colleges. They all cited some research which claimed students who lived in the dorms for the first year were more likely to graduate than those who didn't.

I agree with that assessment. Not only have I heard that statistic repeated when discussing dropouts, but I've heard it anecdotally many times as well. Kids who don't spend all their time at school aren't as fully immersed, often distracted by dozens of things (and not just by partying, booze, drugs and sex, which is already a full time load). As a result, it's easier to quit and there's less repercussions when they do (i.e. you don't lost all your friends and you don't worry what they all think of you, instead you just have to worry about your parents, who you just saved tens of thousands of dollars).

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


However, as I said, the bigger the institution the more likely they have college housing for all the students and want them in them to improve their revenue and profits.


Believe me, I doubt the dorms are the driving profitability centers for most schools, and they in fact tend to limit a school's growth, as it takes a HUGE investment to build enough physical space to add students. Instead, the current trend is for the bigger schools to offer 'online classes', so that students from other institutions to attend their classes for full enrollment with little overhead cost in their 'attending'.

Instead, the main reason behind keeping the ancient dorms is that schools which require them have higher graduation rates than those that don't (typically community colleges).

When I was in school, I spent the entire four years in a variety of dorms (though as you advance, you move into the more desired single rather than group rooms).

@Not_an_ID

Which may be typical for dozens upon dozens of schools, but it isn't typical for the remaining hundreds of Universities and small colleges across the nation.

My school was hardly 'ivy-league', though it did have ivy covered walls in parts of the campus. It was smaller than two out of three of my high-schools with less than a thousand graduates each year. I believe it's essentially the same size today it was back then (though I haven't checked).

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@Ross at Play

AFAIK, the term 'Ivy League' is usually restricted to the 8 universities that compete against each other in an NCAA Conference of that name.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

Replies:   Ross at Play
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Instead, the main reason behind keeping the ancient dorms is that schools which require them have higher graduation rates than those that don't (typically community colleges).


It's also possible they're applying principles the military employs from time to time. By restricting the freshmen to on campus dorms under supervision, it reduces the number of idiotic things they can can get involved in. (Which may or may not result in dropping out)

Other aspects are "tradition" as a consequence of "access" both to information and to locations. Social and physical mobility has improved in numerous ways over the past century, so the need to live within walking distance is less important. Likewise, access to information has changed considerably since the 1980's in general, and the late 90's specifically. You don't need to go to the campus library in order to perform deep research on academic issues. So on and so forth.

Ross at Play

@Not_a_ID

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

I understand that the term has both a generic and a specific use.
My main point was that universities in the NCAA 'Ivy League' come with a guarantee of being incredibly expensive (at least, for those without scholarships). :-)

Fraxo

Lot of information here. Thanks guys.
And here I thought that writing fiction meant less research...

Seriously though, I'd like it to be authentic, so the input is valuable to me.

We enter the story the summer after the main character's freshman year, so it wouldn't be a problem changing living situation. I haven't used a lot of time on that in the story, and it's still a work in progress.

Back to his studies again. He enters a 4 year bachelor program, which I understand would mean a sizeable study fee plus all the other expenses. He hope to take a MBA, and he would try to do that after he gets a job? Or should I just call him a engineering student period, and write in an additional MBA or similar courses later if I want to?

Both the male and female character would be living at dorms on campus normally. Would this mean you're back to high school protocol for intimacy? :) The author hasn't provided either of them with a car yet...

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Fraxo

The author hasn't provided either of them with a car yet...


Not necessary if you have them in the same coed dormitory. They just have to worry about those pesky roommates.

Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

Both the male and female character would be living at dorms on campus normally. Would this mean you're back to high school protocol for intimacy? :) The author hasn't provided either of them with a car yet...

Heck no! The opportunities to 'hook up' at college campuses are legendary, although the actual occurrences are noticeably fewer. Most studious 'nerd types' still get laid a whole lot, but that doesn't keep them from trying valiantly, while many (but not all) of the women are either leery of the men or out to prove how serious they are about their studies.

Still, the idea that sex is so rampant, and hookups so readily available, tends to weigh heavily on older teens separated in different colleges (or even those with one stuck at home, watching from a distance as the other enjoys freedoms they can hardly imagine). Again, a lot of rich material to play with.

If depends on how you want to play this. If the guy is serious, trying to scrimp and save to pay his way through school, he'll also be deeply unsure about his relationship with such easy 'hookups' and plenty of available 'hot guys' around, while the girl will have trouble getting the stay-at-home guy to appreciate just what he's missing by staying at home. Further complicating things, they'll both try to convince the other of what they're missing, completely talking past one another on many instances. (This is a classic conflict in hundreds of 'college romance' movies over the ages.)

Also, they secret to cars on most campuses are that they're mostly a trap. The few with cars are continually pressed into service, ferrying the others all over the place, often stuck with remaining sober while driving their drunk friends and will often resort to making demands on those same friends in exchange for their largess, further stressing those friendships.

Those without cars actually have greater freedom. With seemingly fewer options, they have fewer responsibilities, and someone is always going where you want to go too, so it isn't terribly difficult to arrange a ride. Also, because girls are so conscious of date-rape, typically girls will travel with girls, or at least travel in 'packs' (several girls going with a few guys so they can defend each other if necessary). Of course, much of that goes out the window once the drinks start pouring and good reason goes out the window on everyone's part.

@REP

The author hasn't provided either of them with a car yet...

Not necessary if you have them in the same coed dormitory. They just have to worry about those pesky roommates.

That's where the classic 'tie on the doorknob' system works. If someone returns home to find a tie (or scarf) hanging from the doorknob, they'll know to not knock on the door, forcing them to find someone else to waste several hours as they await the opportunity to return home to crash (or study for an important test).

Replies:   Fraxo  Not_a_ID
Fraxo
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

I can see opportunities both ways.

If depends on how you want to play this. If the guy is serious, trying to scrimp and save to pay his way through school, he'll also be deeply unsure about his relationship with such easy 'hookups' and plenty of available 'hot guys' around, while the girl will have trouble getting the stay-at-home guy to appreciate just what he's missing by staying at home. Further complicating things, they'll both try to convince the other of what they're missing, completely talking past one another on many instances. (This is a classic conflict in hundreds of 'college romance' movies over the ages.)


As you suggest, having him saving money by living at home will fit well with the story and plot as I have it laid out at this stage. He could have had a mandatory first year at the dorm, and then move back home for instance. Is that a possible scenario? Having gotten a girlfriend from the popular crowd living at campus makes for many discussions and possibilities for me as an author.

On the other hand I can see him pissed at his roommate constantly crashing the dorm with parties, marking him as a 'nerd' and outcast trying to be serious about his studies. Maybe his roommate gathers all kind of people, making for awkward situations.

Is the dorms off limits and closed at summer btw?

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

Also, they secret to cars on most campuses are that they're mostly a trap. The few with cars are continually pressed into service, ferrying the others all over the place, often stuck with remaining sober while driving their drunk friends and will often resort to making demands on those same friends in exchange for their largess, further stressing those friendships.


And evidently, at least if the Transformers movies are any indication for some of the schools that DO mandate dorm living for Freshmen. They're probably also banned from having a car on campus(thus saving the school money in regards to parking facilities they have to maintain)... And if that town is like many college towns, there isn't likely to be a viable long-ish term parking option for them within several blocks of campus as an "off-campus" option. So yeah, the car remains parked at home. ;)

But at least for the University I attended(and others I'm aware of), no dorm requirement, and no Freshman car ban.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Fraxo


Is the dorms off limits and closed at summer btw?


Depends on the school and/or the facility in question?

Many/most schools use the summer break for maintenance/repair/renovation of student housing facilities. Which isn't to mention use of those dorms for various summer camps and/or student recruiting activities.

So in the regards, even for the schools that do allow for a "summer occupancy" most of the dorms are likely to become off-limits during the summer. Meaning they'll have to relocate at the end of the spring term, and possibly need to move again just before the fall term starts.

Now if they're in "family housing" or "graduate housing" it's very possible that year-round occupancy is an option for their situation. But in that case, they're not really living in dorms, they're basically in an apartment building(exclusively populated by students) at that point.

Ernest Bywater

@Fraxo

Is the dorms off limits and closed at summer btw?


From the research I did, most colleges use the summer to do maintenance on dorms, but some are used for what they call summer classes or intercession classes. Thus students have to vacate at the end of the scholastic year and return at the start of the next one, unless they're doing summer classes and are allowed to stay in the same dorm - not uncommon for them to have to switch dorms for summer classes.

Some colleges also close the dorms, or most of the dorms over the two Christmas / New Year break.

On that note, some colleges have some flat / condominium style housing with a full kitchen and the students have to buy their own food and cook it etc. Some colleges allow students in this housing to stay over the Christmas break, but close the dorms without a full own kitchen to save on the cost of running the cafeterias.

Crumbly Writer

@Fraxo

As you suggest, having him saving money by living at home will fit well with the story and plot as I have it laid out at this stage. He could have had a mandatory first year at the dorm, and then move back home for instance. Is that a possible scenario? Having gotten a girlfriend from the popular crowd living at campus makes for many discussions and possibilities for me as an author.

As was noted earlier, not all schools mandate dorm living, and many of those who do offer exemptions, so it should be easy accounting for why the guy gets to remain home while his girlfriend doesn't.

And yes, when school not in session the dorms are traditionally closed. They'll typically reopen during the 'summer session', but that doesn't last all summer. They also keep a small subset of the dorms (like a single dorm) open during Christmas break for those unable to return home (like foreign students or those on financial aid who can't travel, or even those with abusive families).

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

And evidently, at least if the Transformers movies are any indication for some of the schools that DO mandate dorm living for Freshmen. They're probably also banned from having a car on campus(thus saving the school money in regards to parking facilities they have to maintain)

They don't typically 'ban' cars for freshmen, instead they only have a limited number of parking spaces available, and they 'reserve' most for the upper-classmen. Same results, different justifications. However, for my school, at least, I knew several freshmen who were able to part, though I'm sure large universities wouldn't have as many parking spots available.

AmigaClone

The university I went to 25 years ago has a policy that students carrying more than 6 hours a semester must live in the dorms for 4 long semesters. Exceptions are made for those who live with their parents within 30 minutes of campus, are married and those over 21. Having said that, it's likely that there are some other exceptions that are not on their website, some which may be determined on a case by case basis.

As far as I could tell from their website, outside from getting a parking pass, there is no restrictions on having a car on campus.

Replies:   REP
REP

@AmigaClone

Yes some colleges and universities have no restriction on students having cars on campus. However, others do have such restrictions. For example, Trinity College's policy contains the statements:

All students, faculty and staff must register their vehicles with the Trinity College Campus Safety Department in advance. Parking on campus and on Vernon Street is restricted to college-registered vehicles only.

FIRST YEAR STUDENTS CANNOT BRING CARS TO CAMPUS. Any first-year student who finds that a vehicle is necessary even for a short-term basis, needs to obtain permission IN ADVANCE of bringing the car to campus.

http://www.trincoll.edu/cs/Pages/Vehicle.aspx

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

FIRST YEAR STUDENTS CANNOT BRING CARS TO CAMPUS. Any first-year student who finds that a vehicle is necessary even for a short-term basis, needs to obtain permission IN ADVANCE of bringing the car to campus.

What's more, students are strictly forbidden from parking their cars in their dorm rooms or in the Trinity Churches Vestibule! 'D Bad Parking! Bad, bad parking! Woof!

Replies:   Dominions Son  REP
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

forbidden from parking their cars in their dorm rooms


How would they get their cars through the doors, corridors, and if they aren't on the first floor, elevators?

Replies:   sejintenej
REP

@Crumbly Writer

What about on the Chancellor's front lawn? :)

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone
Updated:

@REP

Parking is prohibited on grass/cultivated areas as well.

While I don't know exactly how they managed to do it, I suspect that there have been vehicles parked within those specific locations mentioned.

Replies:   Dominions Son
sejintenej
Updated:

@Dominions Son


Crumbly Writer

forbidden from parking their cars in their dorm rooms

How would they get their cars through the doors, corridors, and if they aren't on the first floor, elevators?


Looks like pretty poor drafting to me by specifying just cars.

A City gentleman of my acquaintance lived in a three storey building in Chelsea (posh central London) during the last war. He erected a pair of davits on the roof and would hoist his motorbike up the outside of the building in order to store it on the third floor.

Just a thought, if you erect 12 inch high pillars on the road and put a vehicle on those so it is not touching the road some smart lawyer might prove in court that because no wheels were touching then the car was not parked on the road. Sounds crazy? I agree BUT lawyers have pulled off far sillier things than that!

When writing you must assume that some arsehole is cleverer than you and will search for a loophole. Many years ago I got laughed at when I suggested that an airstrike was a (slight) risk to our office; we were on the Heathrow flightpath. I received apologies after 11th September

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@AmigaClone

While I don't know exactly how they managed to do it, I suspect that there have been vehicles parked within those specific locations mentioned.


The car in dorm/room or professor/dean's office is a prank that is done by disassembling the car and reassembling it in the prank location.

1. That's a lot of effort to go to for a parking space rather than an epic prank.

2. It would be impossible with a modern uni-body car.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@Dominions Son

Granted, with a car like the one in the video below that prank would be a lot easier ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@AmigaClone

Granted, with a car like the one in the video below that prank would be a lot easier ...


Yes, it's a lot easier with a micro car. Not a lot of them around though.

REP
Updated:

@sejintenej


might prove in court that because no wheels were touching then the car was not parked on the road.


That may be true, but the student would have violated the policy's prohibition of bringing an unregistered car on campus (i.e. he would have to drive the car on the campus's roads to get it to the pillars). :)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

That may be true, but the student would have violated the policy's prohibition of bringing an unregistered car on campus (i.e. he would have to drive the car on the campus's roads to get it to the pillars). :)

That sounds like a challenge to me, and as we all know, there's no faster way to get young men to do something stupid than to Double-Dog Dare them to do it! 'D

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
PotomacBob

@Fraxo

a veterinarian and engineer would not necessarily be required to go to different schools. Some schools have both. With a very limited search, I found Virginia Tech, which does both. It also has a college football team and is cross-state rivals with U of Virginia. There've got to be dozens of examples like that.

StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

That sounds like a challenge to me, and as we all know, there's no faster way to get young men to do something stupid than to Double-Dog Dare them to do it! 'D


I believe the appropriate phrase right now is, "Hold my beer!"

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@StarFleet Carl

I believe the appropriate phrase right now is, "Hold my beer!"


Bad thing happen when some says "Hold my Beer!". It's almost certain that what they are about to do is epic stupid.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

It's almost certain that what they are about to do is epic stupid.


Especially when what follows is: Tem's fighten words!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@REP


Especially when what follows is: Tem's fighten words!


Tem fighten words: Spar, warr, knock-down, drag-out, roll, kerfunkle, 'sleepy time', dis'greement, spat (related to the earlier 'spar') and 'take down'.

Of course, John Tem has his own list of words. 'D

Ross at Play

Fraxo's story mentions some students who had to do extra study in math over the summer and retake the exam.
I'm sure there's an expression Americans use for that, but cannot think what it is.
Can anyone suggest a natural way to say that?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

I'm sure there's an expression Americans use for that, but cannot think what it is.
Can anyone suggest a natural way to say that?


Summer school.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Dominions Son

Summer school.

Thanks, DS. That's the one I was trying to think of.

ezrick

@Not_a_ID

But this does mean that for College sports, finding someone with "a personal allegiance" to multiple schools isn't unusual. Although odds are good that the two(or more) colleges/universities they attend do not normally play against one another, with it being very likely the schools play in different leagues if not entirely different divisions.


From experience I can say one also does (he better) become a fan of the college his children attends.

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