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A Homage or An Homage?

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

Entering this in an "About the Author" entry, I wondered which was correct and found the following fascinating account of the conflict from the New York Times: On Language - 'Homage'.

Sadly, it doesn't give much direction, but at least it reassures us that we're not alone in our confusion. :(

Note: Windows spellcheck takes the chicken way out, suggesting "homage" without any identifier.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Switch Blayde

I always heard it pronounced with the "h" so I would use "a".

Switch Blayde
Updated:

It reminds me of this joke:

Two guys were arguing over the pronunciation of Hawaii.

One said, "Hawaii."

The other said, "Havaii."

A little old Jewish man happened to walk by so they asked him.

He said, "Havaii."

The man who pronounced it with a "v" said, "Thank you."

The little old Jewish man said, "You're velcome."

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

I always heard it pronounced with the "h" so I would use "a".

The Oxford Dictionary supports that.
The audible pronunciation it provides has a definite "h" sound, and it provides this example sentence:

He describes his book as 'a homage to my father'.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

"You're velcome."

The development by children of the ability to distinguish different sounds is very interesting.
Up until the age of 3, children's brain establish as many connections as possible.
At the age of 3 there is a massive reorganisation. Connections that have not been reinforced are deleted, and "highways" are established for the most frequently used connections.
It's too late if a child has not learned to notice the difference between some sounds before that reorganisation.
Many young children from Arabic-speaking regions right through to the Indian subcontinent never hear speakers distinguishing between "v" and "w" sounds, and will never be able to hear the difference. For Chinese speakers that applies to "r" and "l" sounds.
It takes a remarkably short time for a young child to detect different sounds and learn to distinguish them, permanently. I've heard that only about 12 hours listening to a speaker use sounds differently is enough to achieve that.
Interesting, watching TV or recorded sounds will not achieve that. It only works with a person present and speaking to the child.

maroon

There's several youtube videos of how to pronounce it, and they're different. This one is over a minute worth of many different pronunciations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWKqiOJ-V1k
There's even variety on whether the ending is midge, mage, mitch, mudge.

Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I always heard it pronounced with the "h" so I would use "a".

The Oxford Dictionary supports that.


I guess those Brits who speak Cockney don't use the Oxford dictionary. Don't they drop the "h" at the beginning of words?

Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

Don't they [Cockneys] drop the "h" at the beginning of words?

I believe so, and a variety of other sounds at the beginnings, middles, and ends of words too.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

'A' for horses ;)

AJ

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I always heard it pronounced with the "h" so I would use "a".

I've always heard it with a silent "h", meaning it would be an "an". Apparently pronouncing the "h" is a relatively recent form, though it's become a common usage (equal uses to the original), regardless of nationality.

Or are that just many people who have no clue how to pronounce it correctly?

Replies:   REP
StarFleet Carl

Two words, spelled the same, pronounced differently, with slightly different meanings.

Homage (a) - The vassel paid homage to his king. ha-mij

Homage (an) - This film paid homage to the works of Orson Welles with a recreation of his work. oh-mazh

Both indicate respect, but it's all context as to which is correct.

Switch Blayde

@StarFleet Carl

Both indicate respect, but it's all context as to which is correct.


What's the difference?

Replies:   graybyrd  StarFleet Carl
graybyrd

@Switch Blayde

What's the difference?


Sort of like 'toeMAYtoe' vs. 'toeMAHtoe' ... personal brain farts and angels dancing on pinheads. World-shaking decisions and choices. Life is sooo hard!

richardshagrin

Is sooo hard 100 times harder than so hard? There are two extra zeros. Or maybe o s?

StarFleet Carl

@Switch Blayde

What's the difference?


Art (and not Linkletter). The first is you are effectively paying fealty to the king. The second is you have made a tribute to someone in your movie.

Capt. Zapp

@awnlee jawking

'A' for horses ;)


Wouldn't that be "A' for 'orses? ;)

CZ

Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

Two words, spelled the same, pronounced differently, with slightly different meanings.

Homage (a) - The vassel paid homage to his king. ha-mij

Homage (an) - This film paid homage to the works of Orson Welles with a recreation of his work. oh-mazh

Both indicate respect, but it's all context as to which is correct.

Sorry, but the entire discussion about using "homage" in the included source centers around your 2nd definition, something which alludes to a previous work by someone else. 49% of people pronounce it with an "h", while the rest omit the "h".

Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

Wouldn't that be "A' for 'orses? ;)

Nope, you've got it backwards. It's 'A' for 'horses' and 'An' for 'orses'.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@Crumbly Writer

Nope, you've got it backwards. It's 'A' for 'horses' and 'An' for 'orses'.


And argh for arses

awnlee jawking

@Capt. Zapp

Wouldn't that be "A' for 'orses? ;)


Okay, I cheated a little ;)

AJ

REP

@Crumbly Writer

people who have no clue how to pronounce it correctly


More likely there are two groups who know how to pronounce it correctly and each says the other is wrong.

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

Sadly, it doesn't give much direction, but at least it reassures us that we're not alone in our confusion. :(


I think I'll settle for suggesting someone write an homage to those who bothered to write a homage previously.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

I think I'll settle for suggesting someone write an homage to those who bothered to write a homage previously.

Frankly, it's easier saying the story (or painting, film or 'bad act') as in homage to another.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
awnlee jawking

@Not_a_ID

I think I'll settle for suggesting someone write an homage to those who bothered to write a homage previously.


What sort of message does that send! It will still leave people to forage for the answer.

AJ

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

It will still leave people to forage for the answer.


Perhaps it is better to forage rather than to forum rage?

StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

While it's easier, that now sounds wrong.

The story is in homage to another.
The story is an homage to another.

What do you call your mothers sister? Ant, or ahnt ...

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

What sort of message does that send! It will still leave people to forage for the answer.

Is my foraging for an answer an homage, or is my homage part of my foraging?

Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

What do you call your mothers sister? Ant, or ahnt ...

The non-existent "h" is usually silent. 'D

awnlee jawking

@StarFleet Carl

What do you call your mothers sister? Ant, or ahnt ...


In my little patch of the UK, "aunt" and "aren't" are homophones.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

In my little patch of the UK, "aunt" and "aren't" are homophones.

If aunts aren't haunts (silent non-existent "h"), then why do the kids always run run when they approach, trying to kiss them?

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
awnlee_jawking

@Crumbly Writer

haunts (silent non-existent "h")


We aspirate the 'h' in the UK. It would seem many Americans do too, viz 'A Haunting' (TV Series).

AJ

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@awnlee_jawking


We aspirate the 'h' in the UK. It would seem many Americans do too, viz 'A Haunting' (TV Series).


Everyone does, the "silent non-existent 'h'" was in reference to my previous teasing comment concerning "homage".

If you don't keep up, you can't follow all the latest pun-ie jokes (Note: that's "punie", not "funny"!) 'D

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

Watch it, you're heading for a Xanth attack! That's truly pun-ishing...

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@StarFleet Carl

Watch it, you're heading for a Xanth attack! That's truly pun-ishing...


He plans to overrun them all with the power of Xor and Xand.

sejintenej

@awnlee_jawking

We aspirate the 'h' in the UK. It would seem many Americans do too, viz 'A Haunting' (TV Series).

I'm trying to think of a word starting with h where we don't pronounce the h. My immediate thought was 'hotel' but even there the h is pronounced (local dialects excluded, but who can understand Glaswegian in any case?)

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

H is always silent in Spanish, so someone speaking English with a heavy Spanish accent would likely drop the H.

awnlee jawking

@sejintenej

Honour and hors d'oeuvre seem to be aspirated very lightly, if at all.

AJ

Replies:   REP
Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

I'm trying to think of a word starting with h where we don't pronounce the h.


while an imported phrase like maitre d'otel do?

The Outsider

@sejintenej

Honest?

REP

@awnlee jawking

Honour and hors d'oeuvre seem to be aspirated very lightly, if at all.


And as we all know if the pronunciation begins with a constanent sound us a; if it is a vowel sound use an.

A honour/honor sounds weird to me and it is what I usually see in written passages, so it would seem that the h, is not noticeable to most of us when we say the word.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP

@sejintenej

I'm trying to think of a word starting with h where we don't pronounce the h


Hand, how, hoax, handsome, help, hobble, hoarse, and many more. Check a dictionary.

Dominions Son

@REP

Hand, how, hoax, handsome, help, hobble, hoarse, and many more. Check a dictionary.


What makes you think that the "H" is not pronounced in any of those?

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@REP

Honour and hors d'oeuvre seem to be aspirated very lightly, if at all.

Only if you pronounce it "Whore d'or" while whispering so you won't offend anyone. 'D

In words imported from either Spanish or French, you generally don't pronounce the "h" in many words.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Hand, how, hoax, handsome, help, hobble, hoarse, and many more. Check a dictionary.

And in "whore" and "whole" you do pronounce the "h" while not the "w". Go figure! That's why God invented speaking online dictionaries, so we don't have to guess when reading! 'D

Ross at Play

@REP

Check a dictionary.

The Oxford dictionary has a specific note for 'honour':

Use an, not a, before honour.

It gives an example of "an honest man".

REP

@Dominions Son

I hear the H when I say the words. The dictionary pronunciations indicate the words are said with an H sound.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@REP

I hear the H when I say the words. The dictionary pronunciations indicate the words are said with an H sound.


The question was looking for words that start with an H for spelling, but the H is silent, not pronounced. Your list was the opposite of what was being asked for.

Replies:   REP  Ross at Play
REP

@Dominions Son

You are right I misread the post.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

You are right I misread the post.

That's not uncommon. It's something many of us are occasionally guilty of. I only noticed your mistake after I'd already commented about French and Spanish not always pronouncing "h" sounds.

Ross at Play

@Dominions Son


The question was looking for words that start with [a [silent 'H']

The ones I can find include these and their derivatives:
heir, honest, honour, hour

There are some expressions taken from French beginning with 'hors', 'haute'

I've also found several sources which suggest the 'H' in 'herb' is pronounced in BrE, but silent in AmE.
Do Americans do that? It sounds bizarre to me, but I'll happily accept that is so if Americans here confirm they do not pronounce the 'h' in 'herb'.

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

I've also found several sources which suggest the 'H' in 'herb' is pronounced in BrE, but silent in AmE.
Do Americans do that?


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/herb

ˈərb, US also and British usually ˈhərb


Per the pronunciation guide from Merriam-Webster and my personal experience, both pronunciations are used in AmE.

Speculation: the silent H version is a result of Spanish / French influences in AmE.

Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

The ones I can find include these and their derivatives:
heir, honest, honour, hour


Merriam-Webster shows both silent H and non silent H pronunciations for honest and honour(US spelling is honor).

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I've also found several sources which suggest the 'H' in 'herb' is pronounced in BrE, but silent in AmE.
Do Americans do that?


In my experience of US TV shows, 'erb' is ubiquitous in America.

I've never met a Brit who didn't aspirate the 'h'.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

In my experience of US TV shows, 'erb' is ubiquitous in America.
I've never met a Brit who didn't aspirate the 'h'.

Thanks, AJ. I expected that to be the case.
I recall hearing 'erb' once on an Australian TV show and thinking, "What a pretentious effin' prat" the culprit was. :-)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Do Americans do that? It sounds bizarre to me, but I'll happily accept that is so if Americans here confirm they do not pronounce the 'h' in 'herb'.

No, we don't, however it comes up as a continual joke in commercials and late-night monologues all the time, so clearly a lot of people still have trouble with pronouncing it (i.e. they know they're not supposed to say the "h", but often do anyway).

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Merriam-Webster shows both silent H and non silent H pronunciations for honest and honour(US spelling is honor).

Are honor killings still honorable if you pronounce the "h", or was that the reason for the killings in the first place?

Sorry, terrible joke I know, but I couldn't resist.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Just a thought, but what about the man's name? I would expect the 'H' in Herb Alpert's name to be aspirated.

AJ

richardshagrin

My house was built in 1905. It had a home age of 112 years.

awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

My house was built in 1905. It had a home age of 112 years.


You could also say it has a from age of 112 years, but that would be a bit cheesy.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sejintenej

@awnlee jawking

Just a thought, but what about the man's name? I would expect the 'H' in Herb Alpert's name to be aspirated.


I have heard 'erb' (sound) as an abbreviation / nickname but I don't know the person's actual name. As someone wrote it UK we always use the h in herb but if we refer to someone as a 'right herbert' it is a stronger insult if we leave out the (usual) h sound

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Just a thought, but what about the man's name? I would expect the 'H' in Herb Alpert's name to be aspirated.

It is. I've been a long-time fan of his.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

My house was built in 1905. It had a home age of 112 years.

How old is Yoga's "Ohm" chant (i.e. is it a Ohmage or an Ohmage)?

Just kidding, the h is silent.

As my father always said, "The only good 'h' is a silent 'h'."

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

You could also say it has a from age of 112 years, but that would be a bit cheesy.

That fromage is a little dated!

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

As my father always said, "The only good 'h' is a silent 'h'."


What a Philistine!

"In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen." ;)

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  graybyrd
richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

The girl said I offer my honor. The guy said I honor your offer. And so it went, on her, off her, on her...

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

"In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen."

My brain wants to read that with a "[h]ever happen".

graybyrd

@awnlee jawking

"In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen."


Which is very funny, because my brain wants to read that as: 'ertford, 'ereford, and 'ampshire, 'urricanes 'ardly ever 'appen. Kinda makes my brain 'appy, 'ealthy and good-'umored.

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