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A couple of questions

Anomandaris

Hi all,

I lost access to my old lit account and have started writing again, after a hiatus of several years. Anyhow, after getting frustrated with that, I've decided to post my stuff here as well.

How long, approximately after it is submitted, does it take a story to appear here?

EzzyB
Updated:

They are done in "batches" throughout the day. Unless you post late in the evening or very early in the morning it should show up in a few hours time.

There is a live person that reviews submissions, so give it a bit of time, but it never takes long.

Anomandaris

Thanks! :)

I'm going to move over the other 2 chapters over the next couple of days and then post chapter 4 after some more polishing. I really would like to get back into some regular writing.

Been reading some interesting fantasy stuff and it has me going 'Hrm... I could run with that idea in a few different directions in my Magister series...'

Really hyped with the idea of messing about with magic and BDSM along with some good old fashioned swashbucking sword and spell fun.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Anomandaris


How long, approximately after it is submitted, does it take a story to appear here?


It depends when the moderators are available to process them, but it's always within 24 hours unless there are major system issues while Lazeez is on the road for other work. I find stories are usually processed within 12 hours of being uploaded into the Wizard.

edit to add: If you get the timing right in can be in less than an hour.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Anomandaris

Heh, it's up already. Sweet. :)

Replies:   docholladay
awnlee jawking
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

If you get the timing right in can be in less than an hour.


I once submitted a story, went to perform a bodily necessity, and by the time I got back it was available. Someone must have been a very fast reader ;)

(Edited because first version got mangled - note to self, don't use angle brackets)

AJ

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
docholladay

@Anomandaris

I will take a look later, since I am always looking for something new to read.

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

(Edited because first version got mangled - note to self, don't use angle brackets)


OK, I know I wrote it, but I wrote it for a reason - if you read this below you'll know what you can and can't include in a story for SoL as far as the formatting goes - I'll leave the story content itself alone

http://storiesonline.net/article/Text-formatting-guide-for-WLPC-Sites

Replies:   awnlee jawking
REP

@awnlee jawking

Someone must have been a very fast reader ;)


I doubt they read the stories. They may run a search on key words to detect inappropriate content, but rely on readers who are offended to notify them of any inappropriate content their search misses. So it's probably load the chapter/story, run the search, convert it, and post it. They may check to verify the start of the story came though the converter okay.

docholladay

I bet a lot of readers send feedback to the site administrators anytime there is questionable material. I know i have done it usually in the form of a question admitting the fact I might be wrong. But felt it was better to be safe than sorry later.

StarFleet Carl

@Anomandaris

How long, approximately after it is submitted, does it take a story to appear here?


What I've found is it depends upon what time of day you post. My regular posting day is Thursday evening. If I post around 7:30 pm CST, chances are it's up within half an hour. If I post later in the evening, closer to 9:00 pm or later, then it may not post until the next morning.

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Thanks, but the angle brackets were in the forum post.

AJ

Ross at Play

WELCOME ON BOARD.
In terms of how easy does this site make life for authors to post and update their stories - the answer is the administration of the site is excellent in all respects.
All of the information you need is there somewhere. If you can't find, a brief note to the webmaster is all you need and they'll point out what you need. Alternatively, you can ask on these forums.
The ONLY persistent complaints in the forums are about the absolutely impossible task of finding a scoring that satisfies the desires of both readers and writers.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

The ONLY persistent complaints in the forums are about the absolutely impossible task of finding a scoring that satisfies the desires of both readers and writers.


I figure that issue will get resolved about the same time as died in the wool supporters of both political parties will agree that everyone on the other side of the fence is a nice person. - - which as a likelihood of less than zero.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

I figure that issue will get resolved about the same time as died in the wool supporters of both political parties will agree that everyone on the other side of the fence is a nice person.

Agreed.
So, for the benefit of the newcomer, if that's the only point about the management of the site we argue about endlessly, they can be reassured it is a very well run site.

Anomandaris

Honestly, I'm not overly worried about scores. I'm writing for the fun of it, and to tell a fun, kinky story that has magic and BDSM and fun fantastic creatures. I hope other people get enjoyment out of it though.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Anomandaris

Honestly, I'm not overly worried about scores.

That's a good attitude to have. To SOME degree, scores become a popularity contest for the genre you write in.
The good news here is that there are plenty of opportunities for readers to provide feedback on your stories, and those who do are generally more willing to read the genre you have chosen.
You can assess far better from their feedback how well you've written your story, and that is the feedback loop which, over time, will help you develop into a better writer.

richardshagrin

Probabilities range between zero and unity (or one). It isn't possible to have a negative probability.

The same way SOL scores range between one and ten, you can't have a negative score, or one below one.

Replies:   REP
REP

@richardshagrin

The same way SOL scores range between one and ten, you can't have a negative score, or one below one.


Agreed, however the way some authors and readers use the ratings, you would think they consider anything below an 8.00 to be a negative number.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

Agreed, however the way some authors and readers use the ratings, you would think they consider anything below an 8.00 to be a negative number.

For gay readers, those scores would be the only ones worth reading (despite they've vainly attempting to vote them higher).

Anomandaris

Welp, Chapter 3 is up. This is where things get interesting. As much as I say I'm not super interested in scores, I'm kinda hoping the score goes up after this chapter.

Replies:   jr88  docholladay
jr88

@Anomandaris

I just read the first 3 chapters of The Magister, and I'm hooked. I'm looking forward to more!

Anomandaris

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. About half to 2/3 through writing Chapter 4. My posting schedule will be... irregular, unfortunately. I wrote the first 3 chapters 5 years ago in 2 nights of feverish writing. I just HAD to get the scenes down on screen. Trying to get back into writing. I posted them on Lit, but lost access to my account over there. So decided to repost them here. I like SOL a bit better than Lit anyway.

docholladay

@Anomandaris

I am running late on my reading. Just got home from the hospital. I had a major breathing attack Friday night. I will read your story as soon as possible and let you know how well it appeals to me.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

I am running late on my reading. Just got home from the hospital. I had a major breathing attack Friday night.

Anomandaris, that's certainly a testament to your writing if it leaves experienced readers so excited they require hospitalization!

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

That wasn't the reason. His story was just in my planned reading list. I have several waiting to be read as soon as I get to them. The order of what I will read is subject to change. But sometimes health problems come first. My COPD hit hard Friday night requiring hospitalization. Still not where it should be, but all the treatment Medicare will cover. Will have to try and fight it on my own for now.

Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

That wasn't the reason.

I figured that was the reason. Guess you're still not used to my sense of humor. Sometimes I don't think the smiley faces are needed. You don't have to convince me what Medicare is like, I keep losing necessary medical supplies for little reason.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

I keep losing necessary medical supplies for little reason.


Its funny how many needed procedures and treatments require a recorded diagnosis of Diabetes in order to be covered. The list is huge of procedures and treatments covered with that label as opposed to without the label.

Anomandaris

Get better soon!

I admit I do get a bit of a kick seeing my stuff on the front page of SOL. Especially with the likes of Jay C and others that I really like to read. With Jay and Bar Bar both posting at the moment, I'm in a spot where I have a couple of stories that I will drop anything I'm doing to read. I think Bec is probably the character on SOL that tugs on the heartstrings the most. These early chapters are pretty difficult and yet amazing to read at the same time.

Anomandaris

Post a blog and a favorites list. Still getting a hang of using all the features.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sejintenej

@docholladay

My COPD hit hard Friday night requiring hospitalization. Still not where it should be, but all the treatment Medicare will cover. Will have to try and fight it on my own for now.

Teeshirts and all that. I've had it since 2002 and got it under control.
1. Build up exercise fitness - helps you breathe. My lung capacity rose about 80% (tested) when I did a short course. 2 Learn the position to take when you get breathless - the obvious ones can hinder. 3 Keep a stock of prednisolone (I have 5 days at 30mg a day) for oncoming emergencies. 4 Have you had tests for allergies? 5 Have your phlegm checked for germs - apparently bugs in the lungs are responsible for many cases and can be dealt with quickly, easily and permanently. 6 First responders probably give you Ventolin ( Salbutamol) which is up to 30 times stronger than the inhaler in your pocket - beware overuse. 7 You may be offered the machine used in hospitals - BEWARE - speak to the doctor before thinking about it because there are dangers in even having one

Anomandaris

So here's a question. How do you respond to comments from people that obviously haven't read the story codes? Like, I got a comment in regards to some of the bdsm elements, but it's in the codes and in a disclaimer at the top of every chapter...

The Outsider

@Anomandaris

I'd be totally snarky and sarcastic, but that's me.

You could say "I'm sorry you aren't enjoying that part of the story, but the proper code is listed along with a disclaimer in every chapter." Put it back on them (tactfully).

If they have have a squick, why are they reading the story? MM, BDSM, things like that don't interest me so I don't read those stories, but I don't berate those who do read (or write) them.

REP

The topic is a common reoccurring subject. Opinion seems to be divided into 3 scenarios: 1) Ignore and do not respond to the feedback, 2) Respond to the feedback by reasoning with them (i.e. apologize for their having a problem with the content and point out the story codes and story description, if appropriate, defined that type of activity, and 3) respond in an aggressive manner by throwing the responsibility for their reading the story back on them.

You will have to handle them in a way you are comfortable with. Personally, I would base my response on the tone of the message I received. My basic response, which I don't always use, is along the line of: Sorry you don't like the story, so you may not want to read any future story I write that is coded in the way I coded this one. It puts the responsibility for ignoring the codes on them in a polite way without coming out and telling them they are stupid.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

Story Codes are an issue that can cause a lot of trouble for authors and readers.

I strongly believe you should put all that relate to your story up at the start, and then make sure you stay within the codes you posted. This is a lot easier to do if you finish writing the story before you post it.

The authors I detest are those who change the codes with each chapter posted, because the reader who started when the story started being posted is effectively lied to at the start by the author not posting all the codes relevant to the story. This is another reason why I now don't read stories while they're being posted and I wait until after the story is finished.

In the past I used to read interesting looking stories while they're being posted, but then I hit a story where the author changed codes with each chapter, and about 15 chapters in posted a chapter which was heavily into a code area not previously mentioned - the result was I suddenly got hit from left field because when you bookmark a story in progress you don't see the codes with each new chapter. Now I no longer read stories by that author at all, and he's on my blacklist of authors.

I know some authors say they want to surprise the reader, but once the whole story is up all the future readers will see all the codes before they start, so why not give all the readers the same opportunity to know what to expect?

-----------------------

If a story if coded right and a reader gets upset, it's their own fault for not reading the codes or checking the site page telling them what the codes mean.

....................................

On a related issue, if you ever read a story that doesn't have a code you think it should have, send the webmaster an alert and they'll have it fixed, the same is true if it has a code you don't think it should have.

Notification of missing codes is an important thing for the older stories because there are many stories here that don't have some codes due to the code being added to the code list after the story was first posted.

typo edit.

awnlee jawking

@Anomandaris

Ask the reader how they would have coded the story differently to avoid such complaints.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sejintenej
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


On a related issue, if you ever read a story that doesn't have a code you think it should have, send the webmaster an alert and they'll have it fixed, the same is true if it has a code you don't think it should have.


Surely, out of common decency suggest the addition to the author first. If he/she doesn't act then you can suggest to the webmaster

Ernest Bywater

If you point it out to Lazeez his first action is to email the author about it, then if the author doesn't respond within a reasonable time frame Lazeez will do what he feels is necessary.

At this point in time the majority of stories missing a code are likely to be the older stories missing a code added to the list since the story was published, and many of the older authors are no longer active for a number of reasons. You can try the author first, but either way the author will have it brought to attention, IF it's possible.

sejintenej

@Ernest Bywater

If you point it out to Lazeez his first action is to email the author about it, then if the author doesn't respond within a reasonable time frame Lazeez will do what he feels is necessary.

Very true but, as an author, which would you prefer between a mouse quietly whispering in you ear or God, ablaze in thunder and lightning, skit un'dornder, yelling in your lughole?

I reckon Lazeez has enough to cope with even if we can keep routine stuff away from him.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

At this point in time the majority of stories missing a code are likely to be the older stories missing a code added to the list since the story was published


I withhold story codes if they give away an important plot twist. Some readers like the technique, others don't.

AJ

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

I withhold story codes if they give away an important plot twist. Some readers like the technique, others don't.


and it misleads people as to what the story is about. That breaks the trust the reader has with the author, and once broken it's almost impossible to get back.

Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

Very true but, as an author, which would you prefer between a mouse quietly whispering in you ear or God, ablaze in thunder and lightning, skit un'dornder, yelling in your lughole?


Do as you choose. However, there are lots of authors who don't respond to emails anymore, others who don't have an email address that works now, and so on. It comes down to a number of factors. If you email the author you need to track if you get response or not, and remember to take further action later if there isn't. If you email the webmaster it's one email for you and you can forget about.

I don't have the time to chase down email addresses, so I let Lazeez deal with it because it's his site. However, if I know the author and have a working email for him, I'll lelt him know direct.

Crumbly Writer

@Anomandaris

Post a blog and a favorites list. Still getting a hang of using all the features.

Readers appreciate author's "favorites" list (though I haven't updated mine in years). The blogs are good, though not widely read, because they reach readers who don't normally read your work, but may still listen to your advice if you make a strong argument (i.e. readers who frequently read the blogs, as opposed to those who only visit if they're looking for into.).

awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

That's a risk I'm willing to take. It attracts readers to genres they wouldn't normally tackle, and hopefully my stories have enough of a plot to pull it off.

AJ

Crumbly Writer

@Anomandaris

So here's a question. How do you respond to comments from people that obviously haven't read the story codes? Like, I got a comment in regards to some of the bdsm elements, but it's in the codes and in a disclaimer at the top of every chapter...

Sadly, not everyone reads story codes (especially those stories which list dozens, while others learned not to because of those same stories). Even if they do, most will forget what the codes were after they've been reading several weeks/months, so it may still come as a shock.

If you want to minimize it, remind readers, either in your blog or in the end-of-story announcements (which are more widely read than blog entries), or given hints that it's in the works (ex. certain characters might give hints they're interested in certain traits, or suggest their into certain 'kinky' sex acts before you reveal what they are). That way, readers will anticipate it, and it will give them plenty of time to consider it so they won't be so shocked later.

But, in the end the story is the story, and it'll either stand on its own or it won't. You can't apologize for it, and you certainly won't change it because of a random complaint. However, don't alienate long-term readers over it either. Acknowledge their displeasure, explain how you tried to warn readers, and as a last resort, offer suggestions for stories they may appreciate more.

As always, it's better having happy readers who dislike a single story, than lifelong foes who'll try to poison the well for others (i.e. treat them with respect, rather than disdain).

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Ask the reader how they would have coded the story differently to avoid such complaints.

Sadly, story codes are often like prologues, epilogues and forwards, in that they're not widely read (i.e. often fewer 30% read them). There are other ways to alert readers, without spoiling their surprise, which you've got to keep in mind for those who don't read the story the way you envision, but it takes more planning and foresight, and doesn't always work any better.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Ernest Bywater

I strongly suspect the most common use of story codes is for the inclusions or exclusion of stories when conducting searches.

The biggest issue is if someone has a squick and you don't code for it, they'll scream long and loud when they find it in the story.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Sadly, not everyone reads story codes


And others don't know what they are for. I have had complaints about coded for content and when I asked if the reader had looked at the codes the response I got back was "Yeah, but I thought that stuff would get mentioned but actually happen 'offstage'".

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

I withhold story codes if they give away an important plot twist. Some readers like the technique, others don't.

While I can respect that, you've got to remember that for many, squick aversion is a major story selection criteria. Consider the case of someone raped by a brother as a child. Not wishing to relieve the abuse, they'll careful avoid anything with "incest", "rape" or even "no-con" in the codes, so to have them thrust on them at the last minute feels like an additional violation. Many feel the same way about watersports, infantialism, bdsm or romantic mm stories. You should always list squicks upfront, even if you keep other surprises a secret for later.

sejintenej

@Anomandaris

So here's a question. How do you respond to comments from people that obviously haven't read the story codes? Like, I got a comment in regards to some of the bdsm elements, but it's in the codes and in a disclaimer at the top of every chapter

I freely admit I don't absorb the codes; I do look at the précis blurb in some detail and from there at the sex content (stroke stories get passed over) and I seem to pick up and avoid those codes such as bdsm which are not my thing.

I do use codes to search for particular types of story (though I am finding the Forum even better in that respect; thanks to you all)

If I don't like a story it is my own fault for not looking at the codes - seldom that of the author so I have no comeback on him/her and would never complain if the codes were close to accurate

Replies:   docholladay
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

But it forces the reader to look at the situation through your eyes, and hopefully realise you did what you could to warn them and it's their own fault they're dissatisfied. More subtle than calling the reader a dumbass.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
docholladay

@sejintenej

If I don't like a story it is my own fault for not looking at the codes - seldom that of the author so I have no comeback on him/her and would never complain if the codes were close to accurate


I agree with this. I think of the codes as being one of the tools a writer uses to try and inform me about their stories. Sometimes they are a great help, but not always.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

But it forces the reader to look at the situation through your eyes, and hopefully realise you did what you could to warn them and it's their own fault they're dissatisfied. More subtle than calling the reader a dumbass.

@Dominions Son

And others don't know what they are for. I have had complaints about coded for content and when I asked if the reader had looked at the codes the response I got back was "Yeah, but I thought that stuff would get mentioned but actually happen 'offstage'".

And in the situation D.S. portrays, there's really no warning which would prevent the issue if reader don't comprehend warnings. :(

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

And in the situation D.S. portrays, there's really no warning which would prevent the issue if reader don't comprehend warnings. :(


Or just flat ignores the warnings and other information about the story. Those types I believe will always want to blame someone or something else for any problems. The old scapegoat procedure for placing the blame.
I try and use all the information but still make mistakes sometimes. When I do, I close the story, I find another story on my list and begin reading. The only time I will send negative feedback is if I think it will help the writer improve their skill or talent.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

I try and use all the information but still make mistakes sometimes. When I do, I close the story, I find another story on my list and begin reading. The only time I will send negative feedback is if I think it will help the writer improve their skill or talent.

Still, if there's ANY reason readers are dissatisfied with my stories, I'd like to know, just for my own edification and to allow me to make changes, if possible. If you think you screwed up in selecting a story, that's one thing, but if you think a story was miscoded or you were deceived, that's another entirely.

StarFleetCarl

@Ernest Bywater

I strongly believe you should put all that relate to your up at the start, and then make sure you stay within the codes you posted. This is a lot easier to do if you finish writing the story before you post it.


Yeah, but that's half the fun, writing the story with a small buffer, so that way you're always working under deadline to get the next chapter done. Especially for those of us who can't write full time. I hit the lottery, yeah, I'm spending a lot more time at the keyboard writing.

I've had to add a couple of codes as I was writing to my story as well, simply because when I first started, I didn't realize HOW to put all the codes in there. (And the off screen, not written, but referenced raping of Serana to death by Molag Bal - yeah, NOT going to write that scene for love nor money, but it was an important plot point, so I felt I HAD to add the rape code for it.)

I do agree with you, though, having appropriate codes is important. At least have the major and most important ones posted up front. If you know you're going to have gay male anal sex, post it first. I'm normally not into that sort of thing, so I'd rather not invest in the story. (The reason I'm reading YOUR old book that you've been posting is because YOU wrote it - so consider that my public kudos to you. Normally I wouldn't read something like Ed's New Life, so you're expanding my mind a bit.)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Still, if there's ANY reason readers are dissatisfied with my stories, I'd like to know, just for my own edification and to allow me to make changes, if possible.


And if the reason the reader is dissatisfied is because he is a dumbass who can't figure out how the site works and is incapable of being satisfied what good does that do you?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

I have found its usually my personal mistake or something from my past that gets triggered. When its something that the writer could have avoided then i let them know also if I enjoy the story I say that as well.

The trick is to recognize the differences and respond accordingly. When a response will help, I give it willingly. When my reaction is something totally beyond the control of a writer, I refuse to do those 1 bombs as you call them.

Sometimes the help or suggestion will be very small, but always thought out before hand.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

And if the reason the reader is dissatisfied is because he is a dumbass who can't figure out how the site works and is incapable of being satisfied what good does that do you?

It may not, but it may indicate something I wasn't aware of (such as readers don't think posted codes actually apply to the listed story). But it's never the expected issues that sink a story, instead it's those you and your editors never envisioned, so whenever a reader alerts me to new issues, I pay attention, even if it doesn't affect most readers.

However, as I said, your example is clearly an exception, as there's little way to 'fix' readers not understanding how stories work. :(

richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

Still, if there's ANY reason readers are dissatisfied with my stories, I'd like to know,

Too short. (Except those with sequels.)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@richardshagrin

Yeah, I'm aware of that one. However, I've trained myself to think shorter, so it's taking a while to return to longer stories. The next to post story of mine, "Zombie Leza", is another short one (after all, who wants another never-ending zombie story), but the one after that (about to be published) is longer (90,000 words instead of 50,000 to 70,000). I also have another one I need to revise which I wrote when still in my 'longer stories' period I could release which should please everyone.

I gotta say, I really opened myself up for that one! 'D

Ernest Bywater

@StarFleetCarl

If you know you're going to have gay male anal sex, post it first. I'm normally not into that sort of thing, so I'd rather not invest in the story. (The reason I'm reading YOUR old book that you've been posting is because YOU wrote it - so consider that my public kudos to you. Normally I wouldn't read something like Ed's New Life, so you're expanding my mind a bit.)


Thanks for the compliment, and although that was originally written back in 2000 and needs a lot of work on the writing style, I had a difficult time writing some of those scenes, but I felt there were important to the story and plot development then.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Thanks for the compliment, and although that was originally written back in 2000 and needs a lot of work on the writing style, I had a difficult time writing some of those scenes, but I felt there were important to the story and plot development then.

I had the opposite reaction when writing The Nature of the Game. While I've always had qualms about reading gay sex scenes, especially involving anal sex (since I'm not anally-stimulated), when I explored writing my own gay sex scenes, it was like a door opened, and now I now longer have issues with reading other authors' gay scenes. However, don't confuse being unable to read gay sex scenes and not appreciating badly written porn. Well-written porn should be easily accessible to virtually anyone, whether they're sexually involved in such scenes or not. It's only when readers don't think a sex scene has any relationship to the overall story they feel inclined to skip over it.

Replies:   REP  Ernest Bywater
REP

@Crumbly Writer

not appreciating badly written porn. Well-written porn


I suspect we differ on the difference between a porn story and an erotic story.

To me a porn story's plot is centered around two or more people engaging in sexual activities. An erotic story's plot has a suggestive story line that addresses a non-sexual topic/scenario and it may also contain sexual passages.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

To me a porn story's plot is centered around two or more people engaging in sexual activities. An erotic story's plot has a suggestive story line that addresses a non-sexual topic/scenario and it may also contain sexual passages.

Definition: erotica - artistic porn, usually inundated with flowery imagery and excessive wordplay. 'D

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I had the opposite reaction when writing


CW, my issues were more related to the forced sex then it was to the type of sex. I'm not one to force people to do anything, so writing something about forcing people to do things is outside my comfort zone.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

CW, my issues were more related to the forced sex then it was to the type of sex. I'm not one to force people to do anything, so writing something about forcing people to do things is outside my comfort zone.

I agree with you there. I thought you were describing the traditional hetero-male gay-sex squick.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


I agree with you there. I thought you were describing the traditional hetero-male gay-sex squick.


Understandable,originally I just mentioned the scenes themselves. I've done a couple of other m/m scenes in other stories, and also done forced sex scenes to, but that story was written a long time ago and when i first wrote such scenes. I still don't find scenes about forcing people easy to write, just easier than they used to be. heck, there's a reason why most of my stories are no sex or some sex - it's easier to write scenes without sex than with sex.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

heck, there's a reason why most of my stories are no sex or some sex - it's easier to write secenes without sex than with sex.

In my case, I found that sex scenes would often lead the characters (and the story overall) in unexpected new directions, making the entire story richer. However, I became disenchanted with the technique as readers kept critiquing me for including sex, including the wrong type of sex, or not including enough sex. In the end, it just wasn't worth including the sex scenes because of the unrelenting demands of the perpetually unsatisfied, despite the cost to the stories themselves. :(

Replies:   richardshagrin  EzzyB
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

unrelenting demands of the perpetually unsatisfied


As far as I know all SOL readers are human. All humans die, eventually. So they are not perpetually unsatisfied, once they are dead. So not all SOL readers are perpetually unsatisfied.

It just reads that way when you look at your correspondence.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

It just reads that way when you look at your correspondence.

As my description explains, it's hardly all SOL readers. In this case, it's a vocal minority of only a few readers which eventually (after several books) discouraged me from writing sex scenes.

StarFleetCarl

@richardshagrin

All humans die, eventually.


I already did that once. Wasn't a lot of fun, so I don't plan to do that again.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@StarFleetCarl

I already did that once. Wasn't a lot of fun, so I don't plan to do that again.

A good death is always worth repeating. Sounds like a great title for a murder mystery!

Replies:   REP  StarFleet Carl
REP

@Crumbly Writer

A good death is always worth repeating.


Is that a do-over that begins after you're dead

EzzyB

@Crumbly Writer

In my case, I found that sex scenes would often lead the characters (and the story overall) in unexpected new directions, making the entire story richer.


YES!

Sex just fucking changes things. (Bad pun, I couldn't resist).

Crumbly gets it. If you use sex in a story, NEVER forget how it changes your characters.

Crumbly Writer

@EzzyB

Crumbly gets it. If you use sex in a story, NEVER forget how it changes your characters.

Or, more importantly, never introduce sex into a story and then assume that nothing changes in either your basic plot of the relationship between the characters!

Replies:   REP
REP

@Crumbly Writer

assume that nothing changes


Only true if the original plot was not intended to include sex. Around here, the majority of the stories were intended to include sex before their authors wrote the first sentence.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@REP

Only true if the original plot was not intended to include sex. Around here, the majority of the stories were intended to include sex before their authors wrote the first sentence.

Except, I was pointing out a major failing of many SOL stories, where some young guy has sex with hundreds of women, and there's little difference between any of them, it never impacts his relationship with all the other women, and he never once suffers from pangs of guilt for being such a rampant ass.

I understand the Mary Sue trend, but I prefer such stories to have at least a semblance of recognition that the motif is strained, at best.

I like the conflict involved as one wrestles with their personal demons, as well as the 'wish-fulfillment' aspects. One without the other is like eating a plain hot dog with no mustard, or chili without peppers and sausage. It's just ... lacking something essential to the mix.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

and he never once suffers from pangs of guilt for being such a rampant ass.


If he is open, honest and up front about it with all the women, he has nothing to feel guilty about, as he isn't being a rampant ass.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

If he is open, honest and up front about it with all the women, he has nothing to feel guilty about, as he isn't being a rampant ass.

You can be open and honest, yet still be beset by personal doubts which provide a fascinating internal conflict which drives both the character and story to new heights. Not every conflict in a story is external, often, half the battle in internal, figuring out who you are, and what you need to answer the challenges facing you.

Realizing you can be a better man, even though you're technically doing 'everything' correctly, means you're human, struggling to make sense of your life—and making the story more personal for everyone—despite the Mary Sue premise.

We all appreciate the wish-fulfillment aspects of stories, but countering them with the occasional self-doubt makes the moments of blatant self-confident actions stand out.

Replies:   Dominions Son
StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

A good death is always worth repeating.


That could be the main title.

Subtitle - The story of John Wayne Gacy

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

You can be open and honest, yet still be beset by personal doubt


You missed the point completely. If he's honest with the women that he is not promising or offering monogamy and they still agree to be with him, with full up front knowledge that the relationship isn't going to be exclusive, he's not being any ass in any way shape or form.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

You missed the point completely. If he's honest with the women that he is not promising or offering monogamy and they still agree to be with him, with full up front knowledge that the relationship isn't going to be exclusive, he's not being any ass in any way shape or form.

Except, as a general rule, while men admire the playboys who 'get away' with such behavior, most women consider them despicable cretins. Thus, for me at least, I'd at least want to acknowledge they had a point, to at least get those readers to grant me the time to make my case that the character isn't a complete ass! Otherwise, you're telling those readers "I don't give a damn what you think about my story, bugger the fuck off and leave me alone!"

Three guesses how they'll respond.

Often, simply acknowledging a potential problem in a story will buy you the time to flesh out the character and resolve the internal story conflict. That's why I try to anticipate how certain readers will interpret my character, even if I don't intend the character to be that way.

However, it sounds like you're aiming solely for the lonely guys looking to beat off, rather than a story which can be enjoyed by everyone—because that's how your response (and story presentation) is likely to be interpreted.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Except, as a general rule, while men admire the playboys who 'get away' with such behavior, most women consider them despicable cretins.


The typical playboy is not upfront and honest with the women he is with. That kind of character normally will tell the women whatever he thinks they want to hear or whatever it will take to get into their panties.

That isn't at all what I am talking about in terms of being open and honest with the women upfront.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Dominions Son


That isn't at all what I am talking about in terms of being open and honest with the women upfront.


Okay, I understand that, though I'd argue that not all the women he's likely to meet will take it as such. Many (in real-life, at least) will think the 'right woman' can change him, and thus will feel cheated by the encounter afterwards. While I wouldn't consider writing the entire story about such characters, I'd like to at least recognize that they exist, and that many people have negative associations based on people they've know who've been burned by such interactions.

All I'm suggesting (and I'll admit, it's more work with little hope of any major pay off) is that it'll benefit a story to at least acknowledge there's a certain internal conflict, even if the story doesn't address it. It helps make the character both more complicated and more relatable. It at least establishes that he's trying to be honest both with himself and with the women he's sleeping with.

I don't expect everyone to include such reflections in their stories, but it's at least worth noting, so you can consider it as an option.

It's better to recognize potential story issues than to be blindsided by them later. Again, it probably won't impact your reader base, but if you lose two, five or twenty readers who never specifically complain, wouldn't you want to at least know that?

If you decide it's not worth investing the time in addressing, that's a valid decision, but it's better knowing it ahead of time than to be surprised when readers suddenly start disappearing midway through the story (which happens often enough, anyway, usually with little explanation).

It's more of a 'mindset' thing that an actual plot point.

Note: You can tell that I often obsess over minor details like this, which is what often separates my stories from others on the site.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Many (in real-life, at least) will think the 'right woman' can change him, and thus will feel cheated by the encounter afterwards.


And they will have been cheated by the encounter, he didn't cheat them, they cheated themselves.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

And they will have been cheated by the encounter, he didn't cheat them, they cheated themselves.

Never mind. We've already beaten this particular dead horse to death. You know what you're doing, there's little need to read you the basics, I was merely making a point that I prefer acknowledging things, even if they're not essential to the story. It adds a certain complexity to the character, but there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing. It's hardly a 'one-size fits all' story requirement.

Note: See, this is the kind of trouble you get in when you don't get enough sleep, and insist on responding to Forum posts because you're too tired to work on actual stories!

I should know by now that lecturing people on this forum is pointless. That's better on the LinkedIn Author forums, as there the authors are more eager to learn, whereas here everyone is pretty much set in their ways or insists that there are 'no set rules' (which everyone understands anyway).

Goodnight.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Goodnight.

Sleep well!

Anomandaris

Welp, breaking into new stuff now. The previous 3 chapters were minor re-works of 5 year old work. Chapter 4 was just submitted to the moderators, and it is all new material.

We shall see how it goes.
I've begun work on Chapter 5. Taking the laptop in to work tomorrow to see if I can make some concrete progress, and maybe start to get a bit more consistent level of output. Life is decidedly on the rough side with a lot of stress point but I've been finding that writing helps a bit. The muse has been somewhat co-operative. I may have to write something a bit darker than I intend the Magister to be to satisfy it tho.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

I withhold story codes if they give away an important plot twist. Some readers like the technique, others don't.

and it misleads people as to what the story is about. That breaks the trust the reader has with the author, and once broken it's almost impossible to get back.


I'd rather lose a reader than give away a twist and ruin the story for everyone else.

But if it's a bad squick (e.g., MM), I simply won't post the story on SOL.

Switch Blayde

@EzzyB

If you use sex in a story, NEVER forget how it changes your characters.


Not only changes your characters, but defines them.

The first sex scene in my WIP novel makes the protagonist look like someone who uses women because the sex is not for her pleasure. But you find out later it was because she was a bitch who wanted her husband killed and used men to get her way.

The next sex scenes show the protagonist's true character. In one he thinks the girl thinks she has to have sex with him to get him to help her. He turns her down until he learns she wants it for other reasons. The next one is even more telling and he has the sex with the woman because she "needs" it to feel human again (long story).

So the sex is critical to understanding the characters. He has a sense of right and wrong and lives by his principles.

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