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Some Canadian questions, including age issues

Lugh

Some of my stories in progress honor a woman who, had life gone differently, might well have been my wife, perhaps in a polyamory. We lost touch for a while, until I learned that she died in a horrible accent this April, while working to heal others.

In the more recent story being written, I'm leaning toward using a pseudonym, Dove. I might go back and edit that, simply because Word spell and grammar check keep thinking it's a variant on the verb "to dive".

She literally worked her way, as a legal streetwalker, through graduate social work and clinical psychology education. Subsequently, she brought amazing creds and empathy to girls at risk.

When I knew her, she lived in Kamloops. I'm trying to remember her home town, which was a rural community to the north -- might have started with B or H. Also, outlaw motorcycle gangs were a shadow government there, and also on the streets of Kamloops. Any ideas for the name of a plausible town?

The local gang effectively took her from her uncaring parents, and used her sexually, including as a very young -- prepubescent -- stripper. Somehow, she found the strength to establish her own power.

I do want to be able to refer to that period, in no more specificity than above -- she was exploited before the age of consent. About the only specific I mention is that she might have been the youngest person to move easily in stripper shoes. Any problem with this?

Replies:   Ross at Play  Daydreamz
Crumbly Writer

If she was younger than 14, you can't include her in any story posted to SOL, and if you reside in Canada, you could technically be charged with a serious crime. There are a couple fairly common work-arounds, the most frequently used is to simply not mention her age. Unfortunately, that means no reference to her being underaged. The safer alternative is to change her age, for the story at least, at 14 at the start of the story, and then age her naturally from there.

As far as using her name, I suspect, given what you've said about her, that there are likely several who would attempt to 'defend' her honor, thus you might face lawsuits if you use her real name. A simple solution is to simply change her last or first name. You "Dove"/"Dive" challenge is an easy fix, just perform a global search and replace before you're ready to post and you're set.

I frequently use names that spell checkers routinely reject, I either ignore it entirely, or if it's a long enough book and a main character, I'll add the name to my 'personal' word checker library. It's an easy change to make, usually you just click on "Add to personal dictionary".

If you change her name, I'd also suggest changing the town she worked in, though if the town she worked as a stripper in was a notorious biker town, I'd leave it as is, as no one is likely to object as it's a commonly accepted historical fact (and her defenders are unlikely to link your 'fake name' to that town), at least not without calling attention to her personal history.

Hope that helps.

Replies:   Lugh
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Lugh

I asked Lazeez similar questions.

His answer was essentially, the law prohibits descriptions of sexual by those under 14, but not mentions that a character did have sex below that age.

As I understand it, you could have your character saying, "I started working as a stripper at ... then as a prostitute at ... ". However, descriptions of that "work" might not be acceptable. Note the law also prohibits descriptions of "salacious actions" by those under 14. You cannot describe anyone under 14 watching others have sex.

TO BE SAFE, send Lazeez a representative sample of your text before posting - I expect he is even more concerned that you should not break Canada's laws than you are!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  Lugh
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Note the law also prohibits descriptions of "salacious actions" by those under 14. You cannot describe anyone under 14 watching others have sex.

Just after Lezeez put the changes in place, I wrote a story just to tweak the new stipulations, where a group of kids would listen in on the adults having sex and teasing them about it.

Thus, I could include sex scenes, include teens, but none of the teen/pre-teens actually engaged in any physical sex acts, nor did they actually 'witness' those acts taking place. Unfortunately, while it was successful on SOL, women, as a rule, uniformly disapprove of the story because of those few humorous scenes. :(

But you're right. You can state "I had sex when I was 11" or "my father just raped me", but you can't 'show' the action taking place

Lugh

@Crumbly Writer

As far as using her name, I suspect, given what you've said about her, that there are likely several who would attempt to 'defend' her honor, thus you might face lawsuits if you use her real name. A simple solution is to simply change her last or first name. You "Dove"/"Dive" challenge is an easy fix, just perform a global search and replace before you're ready to post and you're set.


Not at all a problem. Her name was nothing like "Dove". I happened to pick "Dove" because it has a secondary meaning of a color, which was a secondary meaning of her real given name. If anyone figures out the relationship from that, Sherlock Holmes lives again.


If you change her name, I'd also suggest changing the town she worked in, though if the town she worked as a stripper in was a notorious biker town, I'd leave it as is, as no one is likely to object as it's a commonly accepted historical fact (and her defenders are unlikely to link your 'fake name' to that town), at least not without calling attention to her personal history.


I don't even remember the original town, although I knew her in Kamloops -- but never visited there, only Victoria and Vancouver in BC. I doubt I'll have much need to refer to any further detail, although I do think it's pertinent to say that she was a qualified therapist. Since she's alive in the story, there's no linkage with some horrible events preceding her death, and her death itself.

Of course, I could move her completely out of Canada, but that would remove some of our interesting interactions in cultural differences.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Lugh

@Ross at Play

As I understand it, you could have your character saying, "I started working as a stripper at ... then as a prostitute at ... ". However, descriptions of that "work" might not be acceptable. Note the law also prohibits descriptions of "salacious actions" by those under 14. You cannot describe anyone under 14 watching others have sex.


I used "prepubescent" rather than a numerical age, and referred to dance.

Ross at Play

@Lugh

I used "prepubescent" rather than a numerical age

I would be surprised prepubescent was not considered under 14 by Canadian law - but I'm not the one you need to convince.
The point of my post was it's not elementary, and you should ask Lazeez if in any doubt.

Crumbly Writer

@Lugh

I happened to pick "Dove" because it has a secondary meaning of a color, which was a secondary meaning of her real given name. If anyone figures out the relationship from that, Sherlock Holmes lives again.

Uh, "dove", past tense of "to dive", so I'd either pick brown, cause he shit his pants on the way down, or blue, cause that's the color of the water. ;D

Crumbly Writer

@Lugh

I used "prepubescent" rather than a numerical age, and referred to dance.

"Prepubescent" means, before sexual maturity, which virtually guarantees the character is younger (usually much) than 14. Instead, the key is to NOT specify how young they were, letting the reader guess without you detailing just how immature they were.

Either that, or specify it early on, then wait a long time before delving into the sexual content (so readers either forget, or lost interest before they're likely to protest). Interested readers are less likely to object than those unimpressed with the story from the get-go.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

"Prepubescent" means, before sexual maturity, which virtually guarantees the character is younger (usually much) than 14. Instead, the key is to NOT specify how young they were

I am very disturbed by about any advice here about how to "get around" the Canadian law.
We should only discuss what may be needed to ensure that law is complied with.
It's not our arses on the line, it's Lazeez's. He is the one the Canadian authorities may come after if we step over the line.
I stress, you must ask Lazeez if in any doubt about whether the content a story is allowed by the Canadian law.
I very much doubt the law would have been framed in a way that allows what you suggest, i.e. writing "thirteen years old" would be illegal, but using either "fourteen years old" or "prepubescent" instead would be legal.

Replies:   Lugh  Lugh  Crumbly Writer
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Instead, the key is to NOT specify how young they were, letting the reader guess without you detailing just how immature they were.

Either that, or specify it early on, then wait a long time before delving into the sexual content (so readers either forget, or lost interest before they're likely to protest). Interested readers are less likely to object than those unimpressed with the story from the get-go.


This is a sensitive issue. I sure hope you guys don't pull this kind of crap. Remember, these things are really up to the reader. If the reader understands that the character engaging in sexual activities (or is in an explicitly described sexual situation) is pre-pubescent or under 14, then it's a no-no.

Edited to fix age

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


If the reader understands that the character engaging in sexual activities (or is in an explicitly described sexual situation, then it's a no-no.


There looks like a typo in the webmaster's post. I am confident what he meant to say was:

If the reader understands that the character engaging in sexual activities (...) is under 14, then it's a no-no.

docholladay

Always better to be safe than sorry and where legal factors are concerned definitely better to be safe. No way do I want to see Laz or this site getting into legal troubles.

When in doubt I would suggest sending the chapter/story plot to him for his decision. I am not sure if it can be done in private or not, but it is just a wild idea of mine.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Lugh

@Ross at Play

I am very disturbed by about any advice here about how to "get around" the Canadian law.


My most recent rewrite makes it clear that any actual sexual contact of the character in the story is after her 14th birthday.

I am trying to home in on how best to present it to Lazeez. From a literary standpoint, is it the intent or the practice of the Canadian law to exclude the discussion of child sex abuse as a formative factor for an older person, or is it only when discussing sexual activity of the older?

Alternatively, is the legal purpose not to glorify any sort of sexual exploitation of children, a goal with which I completely agree?

As an aside, I'm of the silent majority that, as I think Oscar Wilde called something else, "the sin that dares not speak its name." In current culture, that unmentionable sin is pedophobia. Being around children makes me ill. Had I been cast in 1984, that which would have been my room with the ultimate fear would not have been hungry rats, but children.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Lugh
Updated:

@Ross at Play


I am very disturbed by about any advice here about how to "get around" the Canadian law.


My most recent rewrite makes it clear that any actual sexual contact of the character in the story is after her 14th birthday. As a writer working on plot, but also honoring the memory of a strong and brave woman, I wish I could explain how much she overcame, which, not to put a better name on it, included child rape with parents that didn't care.

I am trying to home in on how best to present it to Lazeez. From a literary standpoint, is it the intent or the practice of the Canadian law to exclude the discussion of child sex abuse as a formative factor for an older person, or is it only when discussing sexual activity of the older?

Alternatively, is the legal purpose not to glorify any sort of sexual exploitation of children, a goal with which I completely agree?

As an aside, I'm of the silent majority that, as I think Oscar Wilde called something else, "the sin that dares not speak its name." In current culture, that unmentionable sin is pedophobia. Being around children makes me ill. Had I been cast in 1984, that which would have been my room with the ultimate fear would not have been hungry rats, but children.

docholladay

@Lugh

As an aside, I'm of the silent majority that, as I think Oscar Wilde called something else, "the sin that dares not speak its name." In current culture, that unmentionable sin is pedophobia. Being around children makes me ill.


I agree with that sentiment and add any forced sexual action regardless of the force used. Force can include physical, mental, emotional or any combination of the three.

At the same time I can and will try and apply the standards of the culture and/or time period. Those can be different from the standards of current era. I don't have to like those differences but I need to keep an open mind as to their reality.

Ross at Play

@Lugh

I trust you understand my comments were not an accusation, but merely to express concerns about what some posted comments seemed to suggest.
My point was you must ask Lazeez if in any doubt.
Lazeez did use the word "crap", so I think I was correct in stating I felt "disturbed".
I cannot be specific about details, but I understand the law prohibits descriptions of sexual (or even merely salacious) behaviour by those under 14. It does not prohibit a character with history of underage abuse from stating what happened to them. However, it does restrict the level of detail that can be included. Your more precise description of what you're planning sounds okay - but I do not know.
You will find Lazeez is very helpful. He is on your side. He wants authors to employ the maximum possible artistic freedom to create stories which interest readers. He just doesn't want the Canadian police knocking on his door.
I am inclined to agree with you about the "current culture". I see some elements of a mass hysteria leading to excessive legal responses, but I will comply with the laws as they are written. I envy your level of freedom. As an Australian, I must obey a law which sets the minimum age at 16, and my Member of Parliament has not responded to an email in which I asked for just the title of the Bill that introduced laws I am required to obey!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I am very disturbed by about any advice here about how to "get around" the Canadian law.
We should only discuss what may be needed to ensure that law is complied with.
I very much doubt the law would have been framed in a way that allows what you suggest, i.e. writing "thirteen years old" would be illegal, but using either "fourteen years old" or "prepubescent" instead would be legal.

Most of the emphasis of the law is over 'graphic depictions' of underaged sex. If the story lists ages, it's a clear red flag. So are descriptions of 'sexual characteristics' (i.e. descriptions of the character being underaged, even if the story doesn't list the age).

My argument was simply that, if possible, it's best to simply drop all descriptions of age. If your story depends on such descriptions, then you're clearly in violation of the law. However, if you can eliminate any descriptions of age, and the story can stand on its own without it, then you'd have a natural defense if sued for it.

By the way, according to the law in question, Lazeez's 14 age limit is clearly in violation. However, his perspective--which is supported by the few lawsuits which it generated--is that prosecutors are only interested in clear violations ('kiddy porn' vs. descriptions of teenagers).

Of course, that could change at any time, depending on how aggressive an individual prosecutor trying to make a name for himself is.

My suggestion is NOT intended as a defense, but simply sidestepping the entire criminal offense, turning a kiddy-porn story into a traditional sex story, which doesn't depict anyone underage at all.

By the way, an an aside, I've never written any such stories. I wrote my "Great Death" series, partially as a protest over the law, carefully skirting the limit of the law, but I never crossed over that line.

I did try, once, to write a story about young children in a 'forced sex' situation, but the story turned out to be so dark I didn't consider it 'publishable'. That wasn't for legal reasons, but simply because a 'realistic' depiction would have to SO depressing! The entire basis of most 'kiddy porn' is that the entire encounter is 'fun for all!' :(

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

When in doubt I would suggest sending the chapter/story plot to him for his decision. I am not sure if it can be done in private or not, but it is just a wild idea of mine.

I wouldn't submit an unedited manuscript to him. After all, the man already has enough on his plate. Instead, I'd ask his opinion on the matter, being honest about your approach and then standing by his decision. If he was forced to read every story single on the site for content violations, nothing would EVER get posted!

Replies:   docholladay
Crumbly Writer

@Lugh

My most recent rewrite makes it clear that any actual sexual contact of the character in the story is after her 14th birthday.

That was my point as well, rather than 'trying to get around the law'.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ross at Play


As an Australian, I must obey a law which sets the minimum age at 16, and my Member of Parliament has not responded to an email in which I asked for just the title of the Bill that introduced laws I am required to obey!


Just a suggestion: never request a copy of a law from a lawmaker, as very few of them ever read even a small amount of the laws they sign. Instead, most simply get 'summary statements' about the laws intent, and simply vote it up or down based on political considerations. They're also not required to maintain copies of the various laws they sign. What's more, they generally have little clue whether any law they sign will ultimately be unheld, and largely don't give a damn, as the passage is a political act, and the final outcome simply isn't a concern for them (other than as a lightning rod for future political attacks).

docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

I wouldn't submit an unedited manuscript to him.


Agreed the main point is he is highly helpful when given the chance. Much easier to ask his opinion ahead of time when in honest doubt as to what would be legal. Same as it was done here, polite discussion of the topic and he responded in a very honest manner without a major fuss.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

If your story depends on such descriptions, then you're clearly in violation of the law.


A story that depends on a character being 21 is not in violation of the law.

Lots of things other than character descriptions would put a character in a particular age range.

Does the story take place in a high school involving students?

Does the story take place at a college?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Lots of things other than character descriptions would put a character in a particular age range.

Does the story take place in a high school involving students?

That's true, but by the same argument, having a character who's in high school, but which doesn't mention the grade, could range anywhere from 13 to 19 years of age (more if they were exceptionally bright, a bit slow, or got held back several times).

What I was arguing is, in most cases, if you aren't writing kiddy-porn, it's generally better to take the underage part of the story out of the picture.

Replies:   Lugh  Bondi Beach  Ross at Play
Lugh

@Crumbly Writer

I had a nice exchange with Lazeez, and my language seems to be OK. Still to be finalized, but "clinical" language of underage sex, as background and not erotica, seems to be OK.

In my story, the character, based on a real person, was abused, but used it to build character.

As an example both of character and working through trauma, while I was 16 or so, I took back my power from a male family friend who had repeatedly abused me. He was bigger, but I was trained and surprised him.

Having swept him off his feet into the first part of a shoulder throw, I explained, as coldly as possible, that he still had choices, choices that I might not have had. He could choose whether or not to be dropped on his head, and he could choose whether or not to have his elbow broken.

Having an abuser crying on the floor, not actually damaged, is good for the soul.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


What I was arguing is, in most cases, if you aren't writing kiddy-porn, it's generally better to take the underage part of the story out of the picture.


Especially if you want to sell it on Lulu, Amazon, iTunes or any of the other major resellers. Yes, they might miss something, but why risk getting your account cancelled? EDIT TO ADD: In their view, "underage" means "under-18."

If you really need to go wild, ASSTR awaits.

bb

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

In their view, "underage" means "under-18."

However, there's a major difference between "kiddy porn" and "over 18", and it's typically called "high school", where young kids come of age.

If you want to write a high school story, for whatever reason, it's easier to simply age the character up, than it is to cancel the entire story.

You can't do that for every story, but if you not, even ASSTR isn't much interested in high school stories anymore (unless that's the age of the child abusers in your story). :(

As for Amazon, the key lesson there is: don't get caught. Amazon makes NO attempt to monitor their titles, and there are thousands of books featuring incest, underaged sex, and any manner of other details which Amazon 'forbids'. The only time Amazon intervenes is if some old biddy registers a formal complaint, in which case most create a new ID and start posting all-new stories a week later. Traditional writers, writing actual 'books' (i.e. over 10,000 words) can't adapt so fast, nor churn out such worthless dreck. Meanwhile, Amazon earns a fortune by selling items while looking the other way, but get 'moral credit' for cracking down whenever someone complains.

I've never given Amazon much credit for their moral fortitude.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

You can't do that for every story, but if you not, even ASSTR isn't much interested in high school stories anymore

ASSTR has plenty of Naked in School stories and gets new ones, there was one recently, and they are usually set in High School.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

having a character who's in high school, but which doesn't mention the grade, could range anywhere from 13 to 19 years of age (more if they were exceptionally bright, a bit slow, or got held back several times).

For someone not from America, what is the "usual" age of students when they start and finish high school, assuming they started at the normal age and were never held back or jumped a grade?

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

For someone not from America, what is the "usual" age of students when they start and finish high school,


this wiki page says it all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Education_in_the_United_States.svg

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Dominions Son

@Ross at Play

For someone not from America, what is the "usual" age of students when they start and finish high school, assuming they started at the normal age and were never held back or jumped a grade?


Even with no hold backs and no skipped grades, there is still a little variance in the age of high school seniors (the graduating class, 12th grade). They will be either 17 or 18. The variance has to do with when your birthday falls relative to the school year.

Capt Zapp

@Ernest Bywater

For someone not from America, what is the "usual" age of students when they start and finish high school,

this wiki page says it all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Education_in_the_United_States.svg


I believe he was asking about countries other than the US.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Capt Zapp


I believe he was asking about countries other than the US.


I saw it as a non US person wanting the information on the US system. I have that image in my bookmarks because I'm an Aussie and write several stories of people in the US educational system, and the info is needed to align the ages to the school years in the stories. However, if you want info on other countries Wikipedia has a similar page for most.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

Yes, EB. I'm an Australian and have a story set in America. I have not posted it yet, mainly because of age issues.
It was written before I moved over from asstr to SoL. To be legal on SoL, I could simply state all characters were in high school, but I dare not because Australia has a new law with an age limit of 16.
Can anyone tell me the title of the Australian law?
I've sent out about 10 emails just trying to find out the title of the law. It's scary not knowing if my actions are breaking a law and being unable to find out what it says.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Can anyone tell me the title of the Australian law?

Ernest has pretty thoroughly researched the law (as far as I recall), so he can probably steer you in the right direction.

I'd also thought the Canadian law stated 16, while the Australian specified the full 18. Though I could easily be mistaken about that. Me memory ain't as good as it once were!

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

Can anyone tell me the title of the Australian law?


16 in NSW, 18 under Commonwealth Laws for transmission - links below

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/1900/40/part3/div15a

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Criminal_Code_Act_1995_(Australia)/Chapter_10/10.6/10.6.Div474

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


18 under Commonwealth Laws for transmission - links below


Thanks. That was as clear as mud. :)

I'm only concerned about the Commonwealth law. Can you confirm :
1. It is safe to store written words om your computer;
2. It may be unsafe if anyone else can ever access them?

At this point I am scared about what type of stories I may agree to edit - because returning them via telecommunications equipment may be illegal unless all characters are 18+, without any doubt.

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

I'm only concerned about the Commonwealth law. Can you confirm :
1. It is safe to store written words om your computer;
2. It may be unsafe if anyone else can ever access them?


The Commonwealth Criminal Code Division 10 is the law covering Infrastructure to protect physical infrastructure against damage or abuse. It is nothing to do with the protection or welfare of people. Section 474 is about the Telecommunications Hardware and Cables and their abuse or misuse as part of protecting the communications network to keep it operational. That's why most of it is about hardware and devices.

474.19 to 474.22 is about using the network to receive or transmit child abuse material. In other parts of the Commonwealth legislation they define a child as anyone under the age of 18 years.

The way the law is written the government is saying the description of 17 y/o having sex damages the communications network. Mind you the government no longer owns or controls the communications network because it's now owned by corporations, and most have no government links at all.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

Thanks.
I will not rely on that law being interpreted rationally.
I will tell those I edit for that anything containing a number less than 18 (and various other no-no's) is unlikely to be returned. :(

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

anything containing a number less than 18


It's only an issue if it's a description or image of sex or nudity of someone under 18.

Not_a_ID

@Ernest Bywater

The way the law is written the government is saying the description of 17 y/o having sex damages the communications network.


....That almost puts a certain infamous Senator from Alaska ("the internet is a series of tubes") on the intelligent side of things.

How does that stand up in court? Are data packets that contain "underage material" somehow clogging their data services and forcing them to send in a plumber? ;)

Note: I actually do think the description of the internet as "a series of tubes" was a rather apt metaphor, but taking it literally is another matter. Even before that incident became a meme, I know of people who referred to their internet connection (speed) as "a pipe" which would play well on the whole "series of tubes" thing.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I'm only concerned about the Commonwealth law. Can you confirm :
1. It is safe to store written words om your computer;
2. It may be unsafe if anyone else can ever access them?

From my understanding--based solely on discussions held here on the SOL forum, yes, you're liable for anything stored on your computer. Which, by definition, includes anything EVER stored there, even if you erased your entire computer ten years ago.

The mere holding of a story (on your computer), which describes sex between two 17 year olds, can result in your prosecution. Although the law was attached to a bill dealing with Telecommunications Hardware and Cables, that was merely a handy place to hide it so no one would seriously examine it before it came to a vote (assuming your legislatures act like ours do). The restrictions have nothing whatsoever to do with telecommunications.

My suggestion, concerning which stories you accept to edit, is to request, based upon the laws you're subject to, that authors pre-edit what they send you, only sending you the FS, no-sex versions of any chapters involving sex between characters under 18-years-of-age (which many authors can understand, as more and more sites (Amazon, lulu, iTunes, etc.).

Essentially, if you want to publish (and not just post to ASSTR), you've GOT to self-censor!

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

The Commonwealth Criminal Code Division 10 is the law covering Infrastructure to protect physical infrastructure against damage or abuse. It is nothing to do with the protection or welfare of people. Section 474 is about the Telecommunications Hardware and Cables and their abuse or misuse as part of protecting the communications network to keep it operational. That's why most of it is about hardware and devices.


Not entirely true that it is all about protecting the infrastructure and not people.

474.10 - 474.12 deals with identity theft.

474.14 Involves the use of telecommunications network to further other crimes

474.15 using a carriage service to make threats against another person

474.16 Hoax threats

That was just from a few minutes scanning through.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
REP

@Not_a_ID

a rather apt metaphor


There are numerous metaphors associated with networking. I worked for a company that was developing a Virtual Private Network application. I still have trouble understanding things like the concept of 'tunneling' in regard to the internet.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Ernest Bywater
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@REP

There are numerous metaphors associated with networking. I worked for a company that was developing a Virtual Private Network application. I still have trouble understanding things like the concept of 'tunneling' in regard to the internet.


It's basically point to point encrypted communication. It leaves Network A by way of "the tunnel" at which point it is encrypted before entering the tunnel, the information is then sent over the internet until it reaches Point B where it is decrypted upon exiting "the tunnel."

Basically other Network administrators could potentially see the traffic moving across their networks between point A and point B, but beyond knowing that it's there, they don't know much of anything else about it beyond it's being encrypted.

The fact that the connections exists at fixed points, and therefor is technically "always there" makes it a virtual fixed object. Which leads to it being called a tunnel: One entrance, one exit, and "nothing to see" in between.

Of course, then you can also "tunnel" from a laptop computer which may not exist at a fixed point. But anyhow, the imagery still generally holds, it just isn't as fixed or permanent. :)

Edit to add: Getting into more complicated applications that I know other people have used. This is also often used by people to skirt around GEO-IP and other such things by placing a proxy server on "Point B" which they've often setup at a (virtual) server in the country they want to show as being from. So they'll "tunnel" from Point A to Point B over what should be a (mostly) secure connection, at which point they "come out" to the Internet at large via the proxy at Point B, and begin going about their activities.

I know of a few people who've done this to get around Geo-IP blocks to access internet content from the United States. Although some of them will skip the tunnel and just use a proxy as that's more than sufficient in most cases.

Replies:   REP  Lugh
docholladay

@Ross at Play

I'm only concerned about the Commonwealth law. Can you confirm :
1. It is safe to store written words om your computer;
2. It may be unsafe if anyone else can ever access them?


as far as the law goes. I can only suggest that better safe than sorry is the way to go. Anyone you edit for should be able to understand the risk just is not worth it.
This type situation causes me to remember the advice I got from an old "Moonshiner" who brewed in large batches. Advice was: "You will get the same prison time for a 100 as you will for a 100k. Make sure whatever you do is worth the time."

REP

@Not_a_ID

Thanks. While I understood how tunneling was accomplished, I had trouble with the concept of 'digging' a tunnel (i.e., something parallel to the network) for the network traffic to pass through.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@REP


Thanks. While I understood how tunneling was accomplished, I had trouble with the concept of 'digging' a tunnel (i.e., something parallel to the network) for the network traffic to pass through.


The other way to view it is kind of like quantum tunneling. although the "nothing to see" aspect is still the key part of why it's called "tunneling."

The "tunneled" network sees network A and network B. It doesn't see the networks C, F, J, Z, T, and K which their traffic passed through to reach each other. They still transited those networks, but they essentially "tunneled under them"(or bridged over them; which is why networking is rife with terms like "tunneling" and "bridging") as you don't see them on your network. They're there, they exist, they're just not relevant to that network application.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Not_a_ID

I think you are missing my point. The tunneling analogy I was given implied the tunnel connected Point A and B, and the VPN's traffic went through the tunnel without going over the network. Which of course is not true.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@REP

I think you are missing my point. The tunneling analogy I was given implied the tunnel connected Point A and B, and the VPN's traffic went through the tunnel without going over the network. Which of course is not true.


Yeah, they were thinking along the lines of quantum tunneling, where it (in theory) literally skips the distance in between. No such luck with present day networking.

It still travels to the points in between. The points in between just aren't visible to the customer, and the content itself isn't readily decipherable for anyone else watching from those points in between. (Which isn't to say they can't decipher it, they're just going to have to do some work to make it happen)

Lugh

@Not_a_ID

Getting into more complicated applications that I know other people have used.


Probably far too much of a digression, but I'm aware of a number of ISPs that treat the entire public Internet as one more VPN (i.e., BGP/MPLS RFC2547), mapped on top of their internal address structure.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Lugh

As far as Virtual Private/Public Networks go. The internet is a giant network of networks. Some of those networks are virtual as well as physical, so that model works. ;)

Particularly if you need to tunnel through a firewalled physical network to get to the internet. :)

Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Not entirely true that it is all about protecting the infrastructure and not people.


Those sections are there because it's about the abuse and misuse of the system, not the protection of the people. The aim of those sections is to maintain the integrity of the system. BTW when those sections were first written the government owned the whole of the land communications system and the later sections on child abuse weren't part of the legislation. The child abuse stuff came many years later, and weren't publicised at the time.

Ernest Bywater

@REP

I still have trouble understanding things like the concept of 'tunneling' in regard to the internet.


The normal Internet comms works by a series of computers handing a message from one computer to the next, with each computer taking the message, temporarily storing it, finding the next to pass it to, then sending it on. Think of it as the gossip network in any town or organisation where each person in the network gets to hear the message and tell the next one - but the message stays clear; or like a radio message where the sender and every operator along the way gets to read the message, confirm it, and pass it on. The communications line can change at any point and the message will still get to the other end.

Tunneling is where the computers talk to each other to set up a line of communications before they send the message, then the message is encrypted and sent along that line in a way no one along the way can read it. Think of it like the postal service network where the sealed message travels a set route from sender to recipient and no one can see it.

Replies:   REP
Daydreamz

@Lugh

There was a story posted here a week or two ago featuring a 10-year-old. It was tagged paedophilia. The description was of sex and was more than a mention, but it was rather cold and of a crime, rather than relishing it in an arousing or promoting way, if you see what I mean. Perhaps that's the key for this situation, more than the age itself?

REP

@Ernest Bywater

You may have missed one or two of my posts. I understand how a network like the Internet works and I understand how tunneling is done.

What I had trouble with was the concept explained to me of tunneling. The impression the description provided was - the message is transmitted through a tunnel between two network nodes without passing over the network connection between the two network nodes. In other words the description defined a physical tunnel that paralleled the network segment.

Replies:   Lugh
Lugh

@REP

the message is transmitted through a tunnel between two network nodes without passing over the network connection between the two network nodes.


Entirely plausible. Assume that A and B are connected to one another over a 1 gigabit connection, but both are connected C via 10 gigabit links. Assuming no other factors, especially if A, B, and C are in the same network, they'd take the fastest path defined by a modern routing protocol like OSPF. An old protocol like RIP would minimize the hop count regardless of link speed.

Things get more complex when internet policy routing (e.g., BGP) is involved. There might be a physical link, but it might be reserved for certain traffic types, or traffic originating or terminating in a node beyond the directly connected one.

Replies:   REP
Ross at Play

@Daydreamz

Perhaps that's the key for this situation, more than the age itself?

To Daydreamz: I'm NOT trying to single you out with this comment.
***
The key for this situation is to ALWAYS ASK LAZEEZ if in any doubt. It's as simple as that!
He knows how the law affects the site.
He wants authors to be able to submit their stories.
He will only veto something if it's needed to protect the site (and his liberty).

Replies:   Daydreamz
Daydreamz

@Ross at Play

Absolutely agree, that is not an alternative. I was offering it as an example of something to propose to Lazeez, or submit with a Note to Moderators, since he passed it (I assume) and it seems to fit the situation.

Ross at Play

@Daydreamz

if you see what I mean.

I re-read your post, and I now see what you meant. :-)

Crumbly Writer

@Daydreamz

There was a story posted here a week or two ago featuring a 10-year-old. It was tagged paedophilia. The description was of sex and was more than a mention, but it was rather cold and of a crime, rather than relishing it in an arousing or promoting way, if you see what I mean. Perhaps that's the key for this situation, more than the age itself?

Not having noticed the story in question, it sounds like the story wasn't pedophilia, but instead focused on child abuse. Pedophilia is a sexual love of abusing children. Writing about those who abuse children is something else entirely.

However, in this case I'd probably ask Lazeez what he thinks of the story, whether he sees it as 'false advertising, or the preferred method of approaching a similar story. After all, we're all playing in his park, using his equipment.

Replies:   Daydreamz
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I re-read your post, and I now see what you meant.

Sometimes, we only understand what we're saying AFTER a flaming episode! :(

REP

@Lugh

Your are totally missing the point, which is the message is not transmitted over the network connection regardless of how it is routed.

The premise presented to me was the message goes through a tunnel which is separate from the network links, which is not possible.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Lugh
Not_a_ID

@REP

The premise presented to me was the message goes through a tunnel which is separate from the network links, which is not possible.

To clarify for Lugh: The message transits from A to B by means of "a tunnel" which somehow doesn't use any network infrastructure in between. Which is physically impossible using current technology. Now if someone gets a working Ansible transceiver...

docholladay

The responsibility lies at both ends in my opinion. For example the differences between Canada and Australia legal ages for literature or photographic purposes. That flat out shows the variables in legal ages world wide.

The writer and site have legal factors for their local areas with the site's local legal age being the final factor for storing the files online for sharing(downloading) purposes.

The end user(downloader) has the responsibility of following their local laws about the legal ages. The downloader is responsible for the actual downloading of the file.

The internet has created an open border for all files that are able to be shared. Both share the responsibility not just one of them.

Laz has no choice but to obey the local laws both where he lives and where the site is located(if different).

The site serves all of us both the readers and the writers in different ways. If we lose the site we will lose a great resource for both the readers and the writers.

I can't say whether or not its perfect, but for now its the best resource I know of.

Lugh

@REP

The premise presented to me was the message goes through a tunnel which is separate from the network links, which is not possible.


I'd have to see a diagram. It's entirely possible to have a tunnel between A and B that does not traverse the direct network connection between A and B. A simple graphic here really doesn't lend itself to showing how multiple virtual address paces superimpose on a physical address space.

/--------------C------------
A/=============================B

It would be entirely plausible and appropriate to have a tunnel that traverses a physical path ACB between A and B, but does not use the physical link AB.

Replies:   REP
Daydreamz

@Ross at Play

I re-read your post, and I now see what you meant. :-)

😃

Daydreamz

@Crumbly Writer

in this case I'd probably ask Lazeez what he thinks of the story, whether he sees it as 'false advertising

I mention the pedo tag as a sign that the writer didn't try to sneak the 10-year-old past the mods/Lazeez, but flagged it for consideration, so I assume it's all in line with policy. Personally if I had that element in my story I'd mention it in Notes for Moderators and regard that as all the consultation that was needed. They could accept it or send it back, and evidently they accepted that one, so possibly it could meet @lugh 's needs.

I didn't read it very far because it was a bit grim for me. I was surprised about the age to start with, but then worked out the principle.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Daydreamz

I didn't read it very far because it was a bit grim for me. I was surprised about the age to start with, but then worked out the principle.

I tried writing a sex story with young kids in it. I tried to make it 'realistic', showing the unpleasant aspects, but I couldn't finish it because it was SO dark. Without the glee of experiencing forbidden sex, most sex stories can't succeed. These are 'fantasies' in more ways than one. Without the fantasy that everyone benefits from rape, the stories fall flat.

There is a role for serious consideration of issues in literature, but it's a narrow perch, and it's easy to topple off of.

Replies:   docholladay  Daydreamz
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

There is a role for serious consideration of issues in literature, but it's a narrow perch, and it's easy to topple off of.


I like the way some writers who do have kids in their stories: keep it private yet don't really try and hide the fact the adults are having sex from them. Instead they seem to use it to teach them about safety and in some cases why everyone participating has to be a minimum age. One even went so far as to pull up the state's law regarding legal ages among other factors on the internet. Then having the kids read it with them.

REP
Updated:

@Lugh

On the Internet all messages are transmitted from one node to another using a physical connection: wired or unwired (i.e. an RF link).

Let me give you a nodal map to illustrate the concept I was given.

X/ ---------- A/ ----------- B/ --------- Y/

There is no physical connection from another node to nodes A and B. The message travels from X to A to B to Y, but it is not travel over the physical network segment A-B.

Can't happen. You can give A and B virtual addresses but the traffic must still pass over physical connection between A and B.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Daydreamz

@Crumbly Writer

I tried writing a sex story with young kids in it. I tried to make it 'realistic', showing the unpleasant aspects, but I couldn't finish it because it was SO dark.

I know exactly what you mean. Very, very tricky. It would scare me to try.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@REP


Let me give you a nodal map to illustrate the concept I was given.

X/ ---------- A/ ----------- B/ --------- Y/

There is no physical connection from another node to nodes A and B. The message travels from X to A to B to Y, but it is not travel over the physical network segment A-B.

Can't happen. You can give A and B virtual addresses but the traffic must still pass over physical connection between A and B.


Correct, and when they're "tunneling" they just encrypt the traffic leaving X and route it to Y, where they decrypt it upon arrival. It still traveled through A and B, but those nodes couldn't "read" anything beyond the routing headers.

It also is likely that nodes A and B are "invisible" to the tunnel itself, as the VPN firewall strips that information before passing it along. (They only get the information that was encrypted; However, the VPN agents that actually did the tunneling probably retain some kind of log, so the guy who maintains it could find out where it went)

And that "invisibility" is where it can get confusing for people. You know it started at X, and finished at Y, but you don't know exactly how it got there.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Not_a_ID

That's right and the concept explained to me was that it left X and got to Y WITHOUT passing through A and B.

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