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How many here understand the distictions between the LGBTQ community?

Crumbly Writer

While at a gay pride event, I saw a humorous shirt and bought it, simply because I thought it was funny. It states: "I'm not gay, but my husband is."

I figured the people at my church, who know my marital status would appreciate it, since many of us were there for the event. However, I also spent quite a bit of time explaining the distinctions within the community (which is itself a misnomer, since they really don't hang out together).

People kept saying "I don't get it." Does anyone here understand what the "Q" designates? (I do, since I had to explain it so many times). If there's confusion here, or someone doesn't understand the difference between the other terms, I'll answer my own question.

Replies:   Ross at Play
richardshagrin

L is Lesbian, G is Gay, B is Bi (bi-sexual), T is Trans-sexual, and Q is Queer. But I still don't understand the T shirt. I start by considering the husband is gay, which is not unusual in Seattle, the mayor is male but has a male husband. I suppose If the T shirt wearer were a woman she might be married to a man who after marriage decided he was gay. Its not clear why a gay man would marry a woman or a man who was not gay.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  REP
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

If you overthink it, it over-complicates it. "I'm not gay, but my husband/wife is" is simply another way of saying, "We're all gay, get over it". It's supposed to be funny, rather than an in-depth analysis of the variations in the LGTBQ scale. However, while discussing that, people were also still confused by "Queer", and also by the overlap between the different categories, so I spent a LOT of time discussing the differences.

By the way, "Queer" is a moniker for the non-binary contingent, those who feel that the binary "male" and "female" don't adequately describe the human experience and refuse to be pigeon-holed as simply one or the other--regardless of their sexual preference or biology.

REP

@richardshagrin

Its not clear why a gay man would marry a woman or a man who was not gay.


Gay men sometimes marry women for camouflage so others will think they are heterosexual. I agree that a gay man marrying a straight man makes no sense, and what straight man would want to marry a gay man. Oh well, there are all sorts, so maybe ...

Replies:   Lugh
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Does anyone here understand what the "Q" designates?

I thought of Manuel (from Fawltey Towers), "Que?".

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


"We're all gay, get over it"


Do they have a death wish? I mean, seriously, the groups they're most hoping will adapt and accept to the new way of seeing things are not renowned for their subtle interpretations, but some are very inclined towards violence.

Someone explains that T-shirt to a skinhead and gets beaten up: I'd be asking the victim, "Well, what did you expect?"

Suggest these people show a little common sense. 'We are really no different to you' messages should not cause any offense, and rarely would. 'You are really no different to us' messages perhaps should not cause any offense, but certainly will.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


refuse to be pigeon-holed as simply one or the other


Australian Governments (federal and probably most states by now) got this one right I think. All forms must have three options for sex: male, female, and not stated.

Contrast that to Indonesia where I have completed questionnaires at hospital emergency rooms that offered only five choices for religion: Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, and Jewish.

I started writing a description of some of the consequences I see as having flowed from a noble intention that the country's Constitution stipulates equal treatment for all (recognised) religions.

I thought better of that. A couple of years an Indonesian was jailed for six months after posting, "I am an atheist" on Facebook. I kid you not! It was deemed a Muslim making that as a public statement is offensive to other Muslims.

That prompts the thought that it may be time for some in more, if not totally, enlightened societies to stop trying to tell others to 'get over it' and be grateful for what they now have and 'get on with it' themselves.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ross at Play


That prompts the thought that it may be time for some in more, if not totally, enlightened societies to stop trying to tell others to 'get over it' and be grateful for what they now have and 'get on with it' themselves.


Alas, my "get over it" was a poorly stated explanation for a joke that fell completely flat. The joke wasn't meant to be deep, as in who precisely the husband is, rather it was meant to highlight the confusion in someone living a gay lifestyle claiming to not be gay. The T-shirt was designed to provide a response in a comical way. That's it, End of story. If you don't get the joke, it really isn't worth explaining. Kind of like when someone doesn't get Bugs Bunny or Elmer Fudd, explaining the source of the humor is a losing proposition.

As far as which box to mark for "Religion", I prefer marking the one labeled "Human". But then, there are many countries I have absolutely no intention of venturing into. I'm not stupid and know I have a tendency to say stupid things on occasion.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

I totally missed the joke.
My reaction was kind of based on what of my closest friends in Australia would have thought. He's a down-to-Earth and thoroughly decent Scot. When gays are usually mentioned he usually brings out one of his jokes, "I do not care what they do, as long as they don't try to make it compulsory."
I suppose my caution for your friends was to try to be careful in the way they phrase things to avoid suggesting the already converted may need to change more. :-)
And, I was in a snarky mood at the time.

docholladay

I always liked my option. "Don't know. Don't care."

The only time it matters to me is if the person tries to force their choice on someone else. Same rule applies to religion.

Replies:   Wheezer  richardshagrin
Wheezer
Updated:

@docholladay


The only time it matters to me is if the person tries to force their choice on someone else. Same rule applies to religion.


Sort of agree, but some people use that very statement as an excuse to discriminate against those they object to, whether it is gay marriage, interracial marriage, minorities, certain religions different than their own, etc. Don't like the idea of Gay marriage? Then don't marry someone of the same gender, but do not try to use it as an excuse to deny service to a gay couple in your place of business, your schools or your neighborhood.

Replies:   docholladay
Perv Otaku

Facebook at last report has over 70 selections for "gender" because those folks in the alphabet soup of not-straight people kept coming up with different terms to use to define themselves. At some point you have a lot of distinctions without differences, but for a group of people that often build their entire personal identity around being different from the norm, I guess using JUST the right word has some vital importance.

Probably the real lesson is that there are pretentious people in all walks of life, so naturally some LGBTQ people who are pretentious, will be pretentious ABOUT being LGBTQ.

richardshagrin

@docholladay

"Don't know. Don't care."


Also phrased, ignorance and apathy.

docholladay

@Wheezer

Sort of agree, but some people use that very statement as an excuse to discriminate against those they object to, whether it is gay marriage, interracial marriage, minorities, certain religions different than their own, etc.


To me that option is a form of force. Its no one's right to decide who can marry or not marry except the couple involved. To me even arranged marriages require the mutual consent of the couple involved. Where its a matter of a cultural tradition, I refuse to judge them because of that difference in cultures.

Replies:   richardshagrin
docholladay

@richardshagrin

Also phrased, ignorance and apathy.


Nope I have had friends who were gay. (used for both genders)

Those friends didn't force their lifestyle choices on me without hiding their relationships. In turn I didn't try to force my preference on them. As a result in most of those relationships we had a mutual respect for each other. It is just that it was not my place to judge their lifestyle choice unless they tried to force that choice on others.

Wheezer

@docholladay

It is just that it was not my place to judge their lifestyle choice unless they tried to force that choice on others.


I'm still not understanding what you mean by this statement. How the hell can a gay couple force their lifestyle on you? The only thing I can think of is like that bigoted County Clerk in Kentucky who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, using her religion as an excuse, or that baker refusing service to a gay couple wanting to purchase a wedding cake.

Replies:   docholladay
Ross at Play
Updated:

@docholladay


it was not my place to judge their lifestyle choice


I agree with your sentiments, I just wish there was a better expression than "lifestyle choice". We would we say the natural desires of straights to form pair bonds are lifestyle choices? I see NO difference at all in that.

But - I cannot think of what the alternative should be.

richardshagrin

@docholladay

Its no one's right to decide who can marry or not marry except the couple involved.


To leave the gender identity thread for a moment, is the age of the couple a possible reason for intervention? Say the couple is six years old. Or one of them is six and the other is much, much older. Or is Pedo ok in this brave new world?

Ross at Play

@richardshagrin

Perhaps sadly, there is no competence test for marriage. The best society has found is the age tests.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@docholladay


Nope I have had friends who were gay. (used for both genders)

Those friends didn't force their lifestyle choices on me


Being gay or straight is not a "lifestyle choice" any more than being black or brown or white is a "lifestyle choice." Getting married or not is a choice, gay or straight, and is also a human right.

Which means a public official or a business that offers services to the public does not get to choose whether or not to serve the person on the basis of sexual orientation or race or religion, etc., etc.

bb

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

Being gay or straight is not a "lifestyle choice" any more than being black or brown or white is a "lifestyle choice."


Gay or straight, being sexually active is a choice.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

Gay or straight, being sexually active is a choice.


What's your point? Are you arguing the Catholic Church's current view, which is, "It's OK if you're gay, but don't actually do any sex"?

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
docholladay

@Wheezer

I'm still not understanding what you mean by this statement.

Its the way some people push the choice on others. Kind of hard to describe in words for me however.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

What's your point? Are you arguing the Catholic Church's current view, which is, "It's OK if you're gay, but don't actually do any sex"?


Yes and no.

If you are gay and Catholic, you have to chose between celibacy and leaving the church. You don't get to demand that the Church change it's doctrine so you can be Catholic and sexually active.

And yes, gay activists have made those types of demands.

docholladay

@Bondi Beach

Being gay or straight is not a "lifestyle choice" any more than being black or brown or white is a "lifestyle choice."


Its all in the presentation. Some seem to want to shove it into your face hoping for a reaction. That is what I object to regardless of orientation or religion or culture.

docholladay

@richardshagrin

Say the couple is six years old.


In some cultures that was highly possible for both age brackets. It was a custom going back hundreds or even possibly thousands of years. It is very hard to change those cultural traditions. Instead of judging them I try and understand the origins if possible then judge accordingly. Its like in some cultures nudity was and is considered normal yet in others its taboo. Which way I judge depends on their individual cultural standards.

Its okay to try and change those standards but its not okay to force them to change their traditional standards. Its okay to try and change them though example and debates, but not with force.

Dominions Son

@docholladay

Some seem to want to shove it into your face hoping for a reaction.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_UP#.22Stop_the_Church.22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

Yes and no.

If you are gay and Catholic, you have to chose between celibacy and leaving the church. You don't get to demand that the Church change it's doctrine so you can be Catholic and sexually active.

And yes, gay activists have made those types of demands.


You're absolutely right about the Church, except that the Church is not a public accommodation as that term is defined in U.S. civil rights law, and thus is exempt from complying with the requirements of that law. Activists can ask for whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't make their demand a reasonable one.

Florists and bakers are not religious institutions, period. They have to serve (whispering here) Negroes AKA colored people AKA African-Americans AKA black people, too. Even in Idaho.

As for demanding the Church change its doctrine, well, good luck with that, but that's not the issue here. Indeed, arguably the Church acknowledges that being gay is not a "lifestyle choice," although as you point out it does insist on not committing the evil act itself.

Oh, wait. Maybe the baker could ask whether the couple is sexually active before deciding whether to serve them? Yeah, right.

Some opponents (not necessarily in this forum) of equal rights for gay folks equate real lifestyle choices---for example, a lesbian who strips off her top and hops on her Harley to join Dykes on Bikes at the SF Gay Pride parade, or the guys who choose to march in leather and cock rings---with the state of being gay.

bb

Replies:   Ross at Play
Joe_Bondi_Beach

@docholladay

Its all in the presentation. Some seem to want to shove it into your face hoping for a reaction. That is what I object to regardless of orientation or religion or culture.


Being a jerk or being dressed inappropriately are probably good grounds for refusing service, along with being high or drunk. None of those reasons were cited by the good bakers and florists---not to mention the court clerk---for refusing service.

Jerks are jerks, and found in every sexual orientation, no question.

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Also phrased, ignorance and apathy.

In terms of N.C. bathroom use (aka. needing proof of your birth sex, regardless of what the judge allowed you to change your birth certificate to), I think the latter is more appropriate ("I don't care who's in the damn bathroom", than the former ("What sex was I again?").

Bondi Beach

@Dominions Son

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence


Back in the day, the Sisters were kind of funny---for about five minutes. Then the act wore pretty thin.

So, I mean, we are distinguishing between sexual orientation and behavior here, right? The jackass who wears his ball cap into the white-tablecloth restaurant or a classical concert? Not the biggest of sins, maybe, but it's still crude.

(Except in Oklahoma City where it's OK and expected to wear your Stetson at the counter, of course.)

bb

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

To leave the gender identity thread for a moment, is the age of the couple a possible reason for intervention? Say the couple is six years old. Or one of them is six and the other is much, much older. Or is Pedo ok in this brave new world?

That's actually a serious concern. In the old days (10 to 20 years ago), the consensus was "wait until they're adults and can decide for themselves", but with newer surgery and sex-change options, waiting until 14 or 16 is often too late, as most kids have already had their last major growth spurt, the hormones have already inundated their systems, and it's difficult changing a 6'2" guy into a 5'7" girl again.

Instead, the more recent advice is, watch for changes in your kid, and if them seem ill at ease, encourage them to come to you and, if they're want to be a different sex, have the changes made before they enter puberty! Otherwise, it's too late to do anything about it.

Replies:   Capt Zapp  Lugh
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

If you are gay and Catholic, you have to chose between celibacy and leaving the church. You don't get to demand that the Church change it's doctrine so you can be Catholic and sexually active.

And yes, gay activists have made those types of demands.

No, the majority of gays (and other young people) have been abandoning the church (Catholic and other) for decades. Their response is: Come back, we've changes, you can be gay if you want to, but if you EVER have sex, or even have impure thoughts, you're going to burn in hell for all eternity, you God-Damn faggot!

In short, their outreach is nothing more than old-school bigotry.

Dominions Son

@Joe_Bondi_Beach

None of those reasons were cited by the good bakers and florists---not to mention the court clerk---for refusing service.


The clerk of courts was dead wrong. That isn't even a public accommodation issue, it's a straight up equal protection issue.

The baker and the florist are not as simple as you suggest.

If a gay couple come in to buy a pre-made cake or floral arrangement off the shelf, that is one thing and should solidly and properly be covered by public accommodations laws.

However very few people buy wedding cakes or flowers that way. Most wedding cakes/floral arrangements are custom, made to order, perishable art pieces.

When you start dealing with services (not off the shelf retail products) that involve at least some artistic expression there is at least some room for discussion over where the line should be drawn between public accommodation and the service provider's free speech/free exercise rights.

Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

Its all in the presentation. Some seem to want to shove it into your face hoping for a reaction. That is what I object to regardless of orientation or religion or culture.

Sorry, but your "Some ... shove it into your face" is simply someone saying "I'm sick of hiding who I am because the bigoted refuse to change. I'm no longer going to hide, and if I feel like kissing my boy/girlfriend, I refuse to be intimidated by prudes".

Again, the demand that "no one should force force me to change" translates into the majority utterly rejecting the minority viewpoint.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry, but your "Some ... shove it into your face" is simply someone saying "I'm sick of hiding who I am because the bigoted refuse to change. I'm no longer going to hide, and if I feel like kissing my boy/girlfriend, I refuse to be intimidated by prudes"


Tell that to the Catholic churches in San Fransisco that have had services interrupted by gay rights activists dressed up as a parody of nuns.

I wouldn't consider simple PDAs by a gay couple to be shoving anything in my face. That doesn't negate the existence of gays who do shove their gayness in straight peoples faces. Granted the real face shovers are a tiny minority of a small minority sub-culture, but they are also the loudest and most visible segment of that community.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Dominions Son


When you start dealing with services (not off the shelf retail products) that involve at least some artistic expression there is at least some room for discussion over where the line should be drawn between public accommodation and the service provider's free speech/free exercise rights.


Good luck with arguing that. Before we know it, whether the eggs are served sunny-side-up or scrambled in a diner will become an "artistic expression" issue. I don't think that argument has any legs, at least not in the public accommodation sense.

Although it would be interesting to see whether a wedding photographer can refuse a request from a gay couple. Can a portrait painter refuse a commission from a gay couple? Interesting question. EDIT TO ADD: In neither case is there an "off-the-shelf" option.

bb

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry, but your "Some ... shove it into your face" is simply someone saying "I'm sick of hiding who I am because the bigoted refuse to change. I'm no longer going to hide, and if I feel like kissing my boy/girlfriend, I refuse to be intimidated by prudes".


Wrong, the ones I was referring to are those who want to cause a fight. Those come in all colors, races, religions and cultures. Heck I don't care who kisses who as long as its not forced on either party. Mutual acts of affection are always acceptable to me. Of course I have always tended to look at things differently anyway.

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

Although it would be interesting to see whether a wedding photographer can refuse a request from a gay couple.


A lot will depend on the local business laws, and when they refuse. If they accept the booking, and then later refuse they can have some major issues. But if they refuse up front they can do so if they word it right. EG. "Sorry, I'm unavailable that day, got some family activities planned." Then don't do any work at all that day.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

A lot will depend on the local business laws, and when they refuse.


If there's a conflict between local (or state) law and Federal law, Federal wins. The "I'm unavailable" excuse won't last long in this day and age, thank goodness.

Email and Twitter and Tumblr and all that will ensure everyone, especially the interested parties, will know soon enough if there's a pattern of "unavailability."

bb

Not_a_ID

@Bondi Beach

Although it would be interesting to see whether a wedding photographer can refuse a request from a gay couple. Can a portrait painter refuse a commission from a gay couple? Interesting question. EDIT TO ADD: In neither case is there an "off-the-shelf" option.


Can a portrait painter decide to do near-realistic or stick figure renditions of customers based on their sexual orientation? Then they have the double feature of artistic expression and religious freedom.

Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

If there's a conflict between local (or state) law and Federal law, Federal wins.

Yes, but public accommodations laws are state law not Federal.

And sexual orientation is not unambiguously covered by existing federal anti-discrimination law.

Your odds of winning would be much better in the state courts using state public accommodations law

Email and Twitter and Tumblr and all that will ensure everyone, especially the interested parties, will know soon enough if there's a pattern of "unavailability."


A pattern of unavailability by itself is not enough. To win a public accommodation case or a federal discrimination case you would have to prove that the business was available to someone else who asked after you.

Even if you are in a protected class, you can still be legally turned down for unrelated reasons.

All the photographer has to do is say "I already had someone else booked for that day" or "I planned to take those days off." and the burden of proof is on you to prove that the conflicting event was booked after you were turned down or that the photographer worked on a day he said he was taking off.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Dominions Son


A pattern of unavailability by itself is not enough


I was thinking more of a conviction in the court of public opinion (with of course a possible future lawsuit) than proceeding immediately to sue.

The most applicable venue---state, federal, local---varies, and depends on what statute the person complaining cites. I agree that one's chances of success are variable, but they are better now than they were even a few years ago.

I hate to point this out (just kidding, I love pointing this out) but the fabled long arc of the moral universe is indeed bending toward justice, and the religious haters and their ilk, along with those who fear anyone who looks or speaks different, are about to get ka-BOINGED by that arc when the tension is finally released right into the heavens (or elsewhere).

Won't happen without a lot more nastiness, however.

bb

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

If there's a conflict between local (or state) law and Federal law, Federal wins. The "I'm unavailable" excuse won't last long in this day and age, thank goodness.

Email and Twitter and Tumblr and all that will ensure everyone, especially the interested parties, will know soon enough if there's a pattern of "unavailability."


Thus creating a dictatorship where others decide who and where you work despite working for yourself. I once saw the result of someone getting a court order to force a photographer to work an event. It was a work to rules situation of the worst kind and the worst work I've ever seen from a photographer.

Capt Zapp

@Crumbly Writer

Instead, the more recent advice is, watch for changes in your kid, and if them seem ill at ease, encourage them to come to you and, if they're want to be a different sex, have the changes made before they enter puberty! Otherwise, it's too late to do anything about it.


So it's okay for a preteen or tween who is 'ill at ease' with their gender to make a decision to change it, but not to have sex with whomever they choose no matter the age difference until they are 18? And don't say that the adult shouldn't influence a minor to have sex. An adult shouldn't influence a child to change sex either!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

I wouldn't consider simple PDAs by a gay couple to be shoving anything in my face. That doesn't negate the existence of gays who do shove their gayness in straight peoples faces.

The "Act-Up" movement has long been controversial, even among the gay rights movement. Although it garners increased attention, it alienates more people than it attracts and is seen as a distraction, rather than an advancement. That's why it's generally disapproved of my the majority of the gay public (as opposed to outrageous behavior in gay rights parade, which is seen as a safe environment for acting out.

@Bondi Beach

Can a portrait painter refuse a commission from a gay couple? Interesting question.

There's always, 'delivering crappy service', which is what whites have done to the black community for the past 260 years! It was the whole basis of the "Separate but Equal" movement, promise equality but deliver crap, then laugh about how stupid the people you cheat are.

If you don't want to sell to every customer, then you don't belong in the business. If you only want to sell to Christians, then sponsor Catholic school bake sales. Otherwise, try attracting customers and selling competitive products, instead of catering to like-minded bigots because your products don't stand up to the competition. If you value your own opinion over your future success, then you deserve to go out of business (or losing not only the next election, but the entire future of your party). Believe it or not, there are only so many more racists left in America.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Your odds of winning would be much better in the state courts using state public accommodations law

In theory, but local courts are more likely to cater to local public opinion, while a win in a local case wins nothing. Minorities clearly prefer big wins, even if they have to suffer multiple losses to achieve a single major win. Local victories don't influence many, while a national victory will apply pressure on everyone, as well as generating embarrassing overreach by the opposition. So far, NC's NB2 (their "bathroom bill") seems likely to result in an across the board loss for the Republican party in the North Carolina State elections, leaving the Democrats in charge of a solidly Red state (which always tilts blue every national election, hence the abundance of black voter restriction laws this election cycle).

Crumbly Writer

@Capt Zapp

An adult shouldn't influence a child to change sex either!

However, if someone doesn't undergo sex realignment procedures (minimally hormone injections), they'll never successfully make the transition, and the parents will likely resent the parents for the rest of their lives as a result. It's basically a 'cut your losses' vs. facing a complete loss of never seeing your kids again.

As far as the courts are concerned, the vast majority of experts in the field now support allowing the kids making the decision, thought they all support involving the family in the decision--unless the family presents a viable threat to the child, of course.

Times change. Sometimes changes occur slowly, other times they sweep in like a tidal wave (tsunami).

Replies:   Ross at Play
Wheezer

In all of the arguments above, replace the word 'gay' with Minority, Negro, Jew, or any other repressed & discriminated against group and see just how bigoted and hateful it sounds. Bigotry is bigotry, no matter which group it is directed toward, nor by whomever does the directing.

Ernest Bywater

@Wheezer

Bigotry is bigotry, no matter which group it is directed toward, nor by whomever does the directing.


Very true, also, obscene abuse is obscene abuse, regardless of the direction it goes in.

Ross at Play

@docholladay

From Wheezer: I'm still not understanding what you mean by this statement.

Your: Its the way some people push the choice on others. Kind of hard to describe in words for me however.

For me it includes being told I should change my beliefs or attitudes when my actions are causing no harm to them (or others they are close to).
I find the way that many demands for tolerance are expressed are intolerant of others non-differences.
Criticise what I do, not what I think, and still only if it causes others harm.

Ross at Play

@Bondi Beach

[the Catholic Church] does insist on not committing the evil act itself.

What country has the greatest percentage of active homosexuals? If the truth were known, my guess would be the Vatican.

Ross at Play
Updated:

@Dominions Son


When you start dealing with services (not off the shelf retail products) that involve at least some artistic expression there is at least some room for discussion over where the line should be drawn


VERY well put! One person's "rights" ARE NOT necessarily absolute, and may on occasions be outweighed by another person's rights. :-)

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

However, if someone doesn't undergo sex realignment procedures (minimally hormone injections), they'll never successfully make the transition

Is that reversible? If not, I would be VERY WARY about who could know it was not wrong.
BEFORE puberty? I shudder to think. How could a child know then. The character Ricardo in 'My So-Called Life' would have known, but how many times would be decision be wrong in real life?
I see a common thread through many 'morality laws' which I think is absolutely correct. A benefit to the majority does not justify life-destroying consequences when a judgement call is wrong. The most obviously example being 'innocent until proven guilty'.

docholladay
Updated:

@Ross at Play


@Crumbly Writer

However, if someone doesn't undergo sex realignment procedures (minimally hormone injections), they'll never successfully make the transition

Is that reversible? If not, I would be VERY WARY about who could know it was not wrong.

BEFORE puberty? I shudder to think. How could a child know then. The character Ricardo in 'My So-Called Life' would have known, but how many times would be decision be wrong in real life?

I see a common thread through many 'morality laws' which I think is absolutely correct. A benefit to the majority does not justify life-destroying consequences when a judgement call is wrong. The most obviously example being 'innocent until proven guilty'.


That is what happened in a manner of speaking to me in the 5th grade. I had saved up and purchased one of those child chemistry sets (no allowance I earned the money). I purchased a college chemistry text from a yard sale. During recess at school I sat under a shade tree to read the text in order to learn a little more about the chemistry options for my set. The teacher suddenly decided I had to play baseball like every other student was. I refused, principle told me either I played baseball or he would use a board on my ass. I told him "you get first swing then I will kill you". I was expelled for refusing to be beaten into the normal mold for children. Namely I was not interested in any kind of sports related activities. To me that was wrong and I refused to be forced into the mold. I got into trouble many times over the years because I refused to be forced to fit the normal model for kids.

edited to add: Principle's brand new cadilac had a small chemical accident a couple of weeks later. Ruining his new car. Not covered under insurance or the new car warranty. Such a pity.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

The "Act-Up" movement has long been controversial, even among the gay rights movement.


That may be true, but they are so loud and outrageous that they draw a disproportionate amount of press. I know people who think they ARE the gay rights movement.

as opposed to outrageous behavior in gay rights parade, which is seen as a safe environment for acting out.


Sorry, but with a lot of straight people that behavior in public parades is just as counter productive for the gay rights movement as Act-Up.

They see that stuff and get the idea that gays can't control themselves. I know that's not true, but I also know people who look at the public nudity and overtly sexual behavior at outdoor gay pride events and get that impression.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Dominions Son

They see that stuff and get the idea that gays can't control themselves. I know that's not true, but I also know people who look at the public nudity and overtly sexual behavior at outdoor gay pride events and get that impression.


That is where the impression has created more problems than they were trying to solve. I have had friends who were gay couples and at least one that was married.

I have also known others that I thought were probably gay, but like that Hank Williams song phrase goes: "Mind your own business and you will be too busy to mind mine." (I may have misquoted a little bit)
Its funny how true that little phrase is however.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer

@docholladay

"Mind your own business and you will be too busy to mind mine." (I may have misquoted a little bit)

Its funny how true that little phrase is however.

It's amazing how many people see a Gay Pride parade, (or BLM, Women's Rights. etc.) and because they are offended by what they see, find it necessary to harshly criticize, and even attempt to ban such events, when heeding the words quoted above would be so much better. If watching a Gay Rights parade makes your blood boil with a seething rage, then you might be part of the problem.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay
Updated:

@Wheezer


If watching a Gay Rights parade makes your blood boil with a seething rage, then you might be part of the problem.


Like the quote said not my business so I tend to ignore those things. I get my understanding from individuals I have actually met both good and bad.

edited to add: The only time it might become my business is if a child is harmed because of it. Otherwise as far as I am concerned its consenting partners.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ross at Play

@docholladay

Not sure how that relates to my post ... but anyway, thanks for sharing.
I'll be cautious about posting things here that might irritate you :-)

Replies:   docholladay
awnlee jawking

@Wheezer

replace the word 'gay' with Minority,


Not just minority. The LGBTQ communities are just as capable of discrimination. I was refused food in a gay pub for not being gay.

A certain UK public body now offers seventeen options for their question about gender. Excluding the traditional male, female, and 'prefer not to say', there's quite a few more initials yet to be added to 'LGBTQ'.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
docholladay

@Ross at Play

Not irritated at all, seems more like a lively debate with lots of different views. Its just sometimes its hard for me at least to put that view in a way that others can understand. Those different view points actually leads to a better overall understanding as well at times.

Replies:   Ross at Play
richardshagrin

Redefinitions:

Big O try: attempting to get a big Orgasm.

OB scene: where Obstetrics Doctors (OB in hospital speak) get together.

Nothing so serious we can't get a laugh out of it.

Ross at Play

@docholladay

Not irritated at all, seems more like a lively debate with lots of different views. Its just sometimes its hard for me at least to put that view in a way that others can understand. Those different view points actually leads to a better overall understanding as well at times.

Sorry, forgot the smiley face.
I didn't mean you were irritated. I was joking I should "be very afraid" and avoid irritating someone with a history of "creative responses" to the many arseholes they have encountered at various times.
:-)

Lugh

@REP

Gay men sometimes marry women for camouflage so others will think they are heterosexual.


Funny that you mention it; I'm working on a story based on a true experience with a woman, "B". A mutual friend introduced us, telling me that B was lesbian, but that the two of us had lots of common interests and really were likely to become platonic friends, as we did.

She did ask me to escort her to some weddings and such, as her family really didn't know her preferences. After we were pretty good friends, she asked me to dinner at her apartment, and then said, "Once a year, I need to test to see if I'm still lesbian. With a couple of ground rules, will you be my tester this year?"

I agreed, and we had a fantastic night. In the morning, she decided her core preference was the same, but gave me the great compliment of telling me that I made love like a lesbian.

A bit later, when I was living with my to-be-wife, we did have some threesomes, without much physical contact between B. and myself.

She was upset when invited to our wedding. I have the impression she had hoped that I was willing to be her camouflaged husband.

I guess I'd have to call her bisexual.

Lugh

@Crumbly Writer

Otherwise, it's too late to do anything about it.


Sometimes it can't be seen, even by the person. As an aside, my mother, a social worker, dealt early with intersex people, and I grew up unsurprised by it.

One tragic scenario comes when Mr. and Mrs. Jones, a lovely couple, finally go to a fertility clinic, and get the sort of testing not practical in routine medicine.

In fetal development, about gestational week 7, there is an event called Mullerian differentiation. The mother secretes male hormones (androgens), which, if the fetus has conventional XY chromosomes, starts the development of male genitalia.

There is a genetic condition, or actually a range of conditions, called androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which an XY fetus does not respond to Mullerian differentiation, and is apparently female at birth.

In Mrs. Jones' case, she was intensely athletic from an early age, which was the reason she assumed that she had no apparent periods. She became a beautiful woman, and, as far as she knew, married a man as a heterosexual. She thinks of herself as a woman.

What categorization?

Ross at Play

@Lugh

What categorization?

I stated objections (or at least caution) to medical interventions before puberty on the grounds nobody could be sure it was correct.
In this example, where chromosomes and body do not match, I'd have no objections and believe the child should decide.
Is that what happened with Caster Semenya - the South African woman (? but yes) who is unbeatable over 800m?

tppm

replying to the subject line.

Between the LBGTQ community and what?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
veronica d

Kinda late here, but I thought I'd add some thoughts.

First, the "T" stands for "transgender" or simply "trans." It does not specifically mean "transsexual," which is a more specific label not accepted by all trans people.

"I'm not gay but my husband is" makes perfect sense if the person wearing it is a bisexual man. Likewise, a non-binary, but masculine-presenting person might wear such a shirt, as a gay man could plausible be married to such a person.

"Queer" is a pretty open label. In some cases, folks will use to to denote "genderqueer" or "gender fluid" or some identity among the myriad of non-binary genders. However, it is also used in a manner similar to bisexual, to denote that "gender doesn't matter."

In practice, it is often used as a cultural marker, to suggest the person has some non-normative sexual or gender identity, but who does not "mesh" with the conventional gay/lesbian social scene.

Myself, I find the whole "alphabet soup of suffering" to be rather tedious. However, I also find it not worth arguing about.

I usually describe myself as "queer."

#####

The WPATH standards of care do not suggest hormone treatment for anyone under age sixteen. Before that, they recommend hormone blockers, which are a very different thing. In short, blockers delay the onset of puberty. They are reversible. If the child later decides to proceed with puberty according to their natal sex, they can stop the blockers and puberty will start. If they, at age sixteen, still believe they are transgender, then hormone replacement therapy can begin.

This is not without cost, in that the child will go through puberty later than their peers. However, it is the most humane option.

Puberty is irreversible. Its effects can be hellish to a transgender person. Hormone blockers give the child a few extra years to make a very difficult decision.

No one gets any kind of genital surgery before age 18. Honestly, the waiting lists tend to be over a year, the costs quite high, the required "gatekeeping" quite onerous, and few adults can arrange genital surgery in any rapid way. I've never met someone who had genital surgery before their mid 20s. In fact, most who get it do so quite a bit later than that. Furthermore, many trans people never do, for a variety of reasons.

The idea that "trans kids" are getting irreversible medical interventions is nonsense.

Dominions Son

@veronica d

No one gets any kind of genital surgery before age 18.


Circumcision could be considered genital surgery and there are recorded cases where gender reassignment surgery has been performed on infants born with ambiguous genitalia. Most of the cases I have read about of that happening, the parents were pressured into it by doctors.

veronica d

@Dominions Son

I was speaking specifically to transgender issues, which are rather separate from intersex issues, never mind circumcision.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Is that reversible? If not, I would be VERY WARY about who could know it was not wrong.
BEFORE puberty? I shudder to think. How could a child know then. The character Ricardo in 'My So-Called Life' would have known, but how many times would be decision be wrong in real life?

From what I've read, most transgendered folk know they're suffering a conflict identity, though they might not understand it. However, the flip side is, if they don't undergo the hormone treatments before puberty, they (especially the male to female group) will always look like cross-dressers and will never find the acceptance by society that they seek, so it's a very real barrier that parents and pre-teen trans need to face, and it's not to be undertaken lightly. However, I can't picture many young straight kids saying "I think I wanna change my sex", unless, of course, they're pressured by their parents for some sick reason.

Hell, my brother knew he was gay when he was still a young boy, and had his first gay experience early in his Boy Scout days (around 12 - 13, though I'm not sure the exact age). Some discover these details late, some aren't completely one thing or another (the "Queer" or asexual contingent), but others know their entire lives.

Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

The only time it might become my business is if a child is harmed because of it. Otherwise as far as I am concerned its consenting partners.

That's always been the justification for abuse and discrimination, though it's rarely true (pedophiles are in no way limited to either gays or straights, as they tend to abuse children regardless of their sex (according to research, though that doesn't always square with personal accounts of pedophiles).

If you want to whip up the public's fear, portray the people you hate as attacking children.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

Not just minority. The LGBTQ communities are just as capable of discrimination. I was refused food in a gay pub for not being gay.

That's now a minority position, as most gay/lesbian bars welcome family of members, but it's not unusual in situations where they (the LGBTQ) are under harsh criticism and attack. In those cases, excluding straights is simple self-preservation, as you never know who's there to scope out potential victims to attack.

Crumbly Writer

@Lugh

There is a genetic condition, or actually a range of conditions, called androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which an XY fetus does not respond to Mullerian differentiation, and is apparently female at birth.

Unfortunately, while those cases are accurate, it isn't universal for the trans community. Many have an extra X or Y chromosome, while others have normal X and Y chromosomes, so there's no clear-cut genetic link you can test for. Instead, some have it (a genetic component), and some don't. (Also, it's possible to have tests show an extra X while another won't, as it various for each cell in the body, further complicating the situation.)

Crumbly Writer

@tppm

Between the LBGTQ community and what?

Between the different segments of the LBGTQ community. In other words, between the L, B, G, T and Qs.

Crumbly Writer

@veronica d

In fact, most who get it do so quite a bit later than that. Furthermore, many trans people never do, for a variety of reasons.

One major reason why they wouldn't is that the transition is, at best, problematic. The female to male transition is especially difficult, as you have to chose between being able to pee with your son or being able to have intercourse (with an installable device). Needless to say, there are many fewer F to M procedures, though even the M to F is problematic.

Note: I have no personal knowledge on this front, as I've never discussed this with any transfolk directly, instead relying on research material and books on the subject, as opposed to my information on gays and lesbians, which is at least backed up with personal experiences (not mine).

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Circumcision could be considered genital surgery and there are recorded cases where gender reassignment surgery has been performed on infants born with ambiguous genitalia. Most of the cases I have read about of that happening, the parents were pressured into it by doctors.

Genital mutilation qualifies, and it's often performed before women reach puberty, and is often pressured by the family and generally only done reluctantly by doctors who don't approve of forcing it on children.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Genital mutilation qualifies, and it's often performed before women reach puberty, and is often pressured by the family and generally only done reluctantly by doctors who don't approve of forcing it on children.


Yes, genital mutilation is forced by the families and the doctors are reluctant. However, that's not what I was referring to.

I was referring to the "correction" of abnormal ambiguous genitalia.

There are at least a couple of cases of the later that I have read about where the unfortunate child has on both reaching majority and finding out what was done to them, sued both the hospital and their parents.

I've also read about at least one case where a male-to-female reassignment surgery was done on an infant because of a botched medical circumcision that destroyed the infants penis.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Yes, genital mutilation is forced by the families and the doctors are reluctant. However, that's not what I was referring to.

Understood, I was just offering yet another perspective into the discussion.

QM

I don't understand them, I don't need too. I'm also prepared to tolerate them, though not celebrate them.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@QM

I don't understand them, I don't need too. I'm also prepared to tolerate them, though not celebrate them.

I have a good friend with similar sentiments to that. He's a down-to-Earth, elderly Scot. He usually expresses that view with "... as long as they don't try to make it compulsory."

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